Loud Pipes Debate...

[stryken]

But, my favorite t-shirt states "Loud clutches Save Lives!" BTW, I have a Duc also .

Maybe our Yamaha shirts should say LOUD GEARBOXES SAVE LIVES!

 

[rider1a]

We have all heard most of the cases both for and against loud pipes. One reason not to use loud pipes has not been mentioned. My personal experience is loud pipes tend to scare deer and road animals more that stock exhausts.

Most of my past touring was done on a Suzuki V-Strom 650, which is probably one of the quietest OEM exhausts around (can you say sewing machine sound). I have come up on many deer eating on the side of the road and they were relaxed. Yet, using the same bike with a Staintune exhaust, I would get animals of all types scattering across the road in front from ostensibly the noise.

For those that don't have a deer issue or race in a track, I guess it is a moot point, but where I ride in heavy deer country, stealth is good.

Fred

 

[Bruce McCrary]

As was mentioned in another post on the same subject, recently the AMA and MIC proposed a suggested maximum decibel level for all motorcycles, on road and off. This was aimed at the aftermarket companies selling exhausts in the US because all factory installed exhaust systems meet or exceed all federal standards for noise and emissions and done in an effort to combat what many feel is impending federal mandates on the issue.

There are already many local governments that have not only enacted maximum sound levels for motorcycles but are actively enforcing them. There are also several areas that have adopted ordinances prohibiting anything other that a federally approved exhaust system on motorcycles.

I'm hearing that the standards have been met with very positive reactions from the majority of exhaust manufacturers and many feel that the suggested 96 db should be considered a maximum level and not just the level at idle. Some folks have hinted around that the scale should be a sliding one that gets progressively lower over a specified amount of time ultimately ending up in the mid 80's.

We're actually at the beginning of what will be an exciting time for motorcycle exhausts and performance. More and more bikes are coming with fuel injection and programmable engine management systems are easier to find. Yet the basic exhaust canister technology is at least 50 years old. Think back to the 50's and 60's era hot rodders and the 'glass packs' they used, the only real difference is in some of the materials. With technology that's readily available and as yet unused in our sport exhaust systems can be designed that will have a pleasant sound, provide more than adequate flow for performance and not burn any bridges with neighbors and local politicians.

Like it or not, "we've" worn out our welcome with John Q. Public in terms of "our" exhaust notes and the end of loud pipes is on the horizon. I feel that the day is approaching when someone who rides with loud pipes will be looked at in the same way that the sandal, t-shirt and sunglasses wearing rider is generally looked at today.

:squid:

Bruce

 

[Kriswithak]

Like it or not, "we've" worn out our welcome with John Q. Public in terms of "our" exhaust notes and the end of loud pipes is on the horizon. I feel that the day is approaching when someone who rides with loud pipes will be looked at in the same way that the sandal, t-shirt and sunglasses wearing rider is generally looked at today.

:squid:

Bruce

Nice generalisation there, I don't know where you are from but here most people appreciate a -nice- exhaust note on a performance car or on a bike, it just has to be within reason. There are obviously people who don't but those are the same people who probably don't approve of alchohol, going out past 9pm, laughing or having fun, or generally letting people live their lives with a bit of freedom.

To most non motorcycle riders there is no difference between a tshirt and sandals wearing super bike rider being irresponsible and stupid, and the most reserved conscientious and polite motorcycle rider in the world. In fact most of the non riding community I know look at those tshirt and sandal super bike riders with awe as if they are some kind of hero, only people who have close friends of families who ride tend to see the true picture. Generally only other riders see the difference. I think its irresponsible, but judging people like this is just a form of discrimination, just like racism. Its probably about as equally irresponsible as letting alot of people drive the death machines called 4wd's, and its never the people in the 4wd's that die either.

Also there is alot to be said for letting people (if they so chose) not wear safety gear, society feels the need to protect every member even when it has to create archaic laws to do so. Its just important that if they DO want it its there for them. (I beleive when helmets where made mandatory in some states of the US they actually found accidents and fatalities rose due to riders feeling safer and riding less safe)
At some point in the future hopefully people realise that we just have to let the stupid ones go, its worked in nature for a very long time. We might see alot less complaints about rediculous subjects too... you never know.

Here in Aus we still try and stick by the 'fair go' which might be dwindling due to peoples selfish and discriminatory behaviour (encouraged by the government (when it suits their purpose) and the way society is evolving).

The sound of a bike has always been part of the image, it would be a shame to see it go.

**Before anyone makes any assumptions I'm not talking about the kind of antisocial exhausts that some people like to use as the ONLY example of a loud exhaust - if you want to make this arguement find the "Too Loud Pipes Debate..." thread**

 

[Rumpole of the Bailey]

I live in a 'forkin' yuppie area in the city of Geelong (lawyers, judges and surgeons), close to arguably one of the best bike roads in the world, 'The Great Ocean Road'.
So the mate knows I sometimes get off the nest early some Saturday mornings and head for the coast. He says,
'Can I join ya next Saturday?'
I say,
'Sure, meet me outside my garage at 7.00am'

At 6.50am on Saturday morning he rides down my street on his new Hyosung 650 with after market pipe. He proceeds to keep it going while I suit up.
I start my new Fazer with standard pipes and he says,
'It sounds like a sewing machine mate, tee hee.'

I say,
'are you enjoying coming with me today?'
He says,
'Sure am'.

It is his last time. He woke every kid, dog and neighbour in my street.
Sure loud pipes save lives.
But they also lose friends real fast.
If the manufacturer doesn't go above a certain sound level why should anyone else?
And why should some idiots feel it is their right to impinge on other peoples freedom, the right to peace and quiet.
Just my thoughts

 

[Wolfman]

I live in a 'forkin' yuppie area in the city of Geelong (lawyers, judges and surgeons), close to arguably one of the best bike roads in the world, 'The Great Ocean Road'.
So the mate knows I sometimes get off the nest early some Saturday mornings and head for the coast. He says,
'Can I join ya next Saturday?'
I say,
'Sure, meet me outside my garage at 7.00am'

At 6.50am on Saturday morning he rides down my street on his new Hyosung 650 with after market pipe. He proceeds to keep it going while I suit up.
I start my new Fazer with standard pipes and he says,
'It sounds like a sewing machine mate, tee hee.'

I say,
'are you enjoying coming with me today?'
He says,
'Sure am'.

It is his last time. He woke every kid, dog and neighbour in my street.
Sure loud pipes save lives.
But they also lose friends real fast.
If the manufacturer doesn't go above a certain sound level why should anyone else?
And why should some idiots feel it is their right to impinge on other peoples freedom, the right to peace and quiet.
Just my thoughts

Ya mate can always do what i do....pull the clutch in close to home, and coast to the door...a lot quieter, or if it's really late, or really early, hit the kill switch near home, and roll down the street...i am sure this works....i get along just fine with my neighbours.

:thumbup:

 

[blkparade]

I guess the point of this to me is a personal preference. 1st are the after market exhausts for our bikes really that loud. Yes 14,000 rpm will make some racket. Other than a full redline run is it really that offensive to even the most average of folks? No matter what your exhaust car or bike, drive like an idiot and you are sure to sound like an idiot. Comparing our exhaust to those V-twins just seems a bit off to me. As far as cost, besides the necessities all else is just not necessary, but we all like to indulge in something or another. I think it is great we can talk about this and have the choice, most of us try to enjoy our motorcycles with as little infringement on others as possible and I think that is really what it is all about. I agree with most, save a life I doubt it, if it does well thats a huge bonus. For me its just about having something a little bit different. It is a great discussion and great to hear the points of view. I've said before what I like about this group is the lack of attacks for our views and so it remains.

 

[Bruce McCrary]

I don't know where you are from...

As was mentioned in another post on the same subject, recently the AMA (that's the AMERICAN motorcyclists Association)...

aimed at the aftermarket companies selling exhausts in the US (that's the United States)...

Avatar location reads: Cotton Grove, NC.

Clear that up for ya mate?

...but here most people appreciate a -nice- exhaust note on a performance car or on a bike, it just has to be within reason.

That's a pretty broad assumption on your part... Rumpole of the Bailey's and his neighbors don't seem to agree with you.

There are obviously people who don't but those are the same people who probably don't approve of alchohol, going out past 9pm, laughing or having fun, or generally letting people live their lives with a bit of freedom.

Bull****. That type of thinking is what got us to the point we're at here in the USA and if you folks down under aren't careful you'll find yourself in the same place. But that's your business.

I've never said I don't appreciate a good sounding engine. I'm a HUGE fan of NHRA drag racing and Top Fuel dragsters, arguably the loudest of all internal combustion engines. This has nothing to do with freedom(s) either, as someone put it in another post "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.", and here in the US the non riding community has pretty much had it and is doing something about it. "We" may not like it, but it's reality.

Bruce

 

[C-bus Biker]

I had a choice to make... don't never, ever, never ride the Harley at night (wake up the kids) or sell the Harley... I ride a stock FZ6 now. At night.

To each his own. I enjoy the sweet sound of loud pipes, but I'll keep mine stock at least until the young ones stay up a little later.

 

[Bruce McCrary]

Comparing our exhaust to those V-twins just seems a bit off to me.

The problem is that when legislation is written it doesn't say "V-Twin" or "In line four", it says "Motorcycle". Besides, decibels are decibels no matter if they are read from a cruiser, a sport bike or a jet airplane.

Bruce

 

[stryken]

I can't blame the public for wanting rid of the radically noisy pipes, I would say the majority of the bad press however is Harley's, Choppers and the like. Its seems that the 4cyl. never get as offensive, and their sound even while loud can't penetrate like the twins. It is sometimes to the point of offensive where you hope they stall out and have to trailer it home. And some of the exhaust notes are not even healthy sounding, it's as if some are just as horrible as possible to get the most attention.

 

[RJ2112]

I can't blame the public for wanting rid of the radically noisy pipes, I would say the majority of the bad press however is Harley's, Choppers and the like. Its seems that the 4cyl. never get as offensive, and their sound even while loud can't penetrate like the twins. It is sometimes to the point of offensive where you hope they stall out and have to trailer it home. And some of the exhaust notes are not even healthy sounding, it's as if some are just as horrible as possible to get the most attention.

The longer the wave length of the sound, the greater the depth of penetration through insulation and the like. There's obnoxious pipes out there for any motor. Bigger pistons make deeper noises... with more energy if you let it out.

I live in the hills 3 miles and 600' above the Columbia river, in a heavily insulated house. There is a rural highway adjacent to the river.

I can't hear any of the cars on that road, with the windows shut ever. Every time a train engine chugs by, I can hear that right through the walls. Fog horns on ships, 60 miles upstream of the ocean.... that took some getting used to.

The idiot kid with the Jeep Cherokee, who blows past my house a couple of times a day with the megathumping base? I can hear that guy over a mile off.:spank:

It's his hearing.... and he's not near by for any length of time. If he was stationary, I would go talk to him and politely ask him to show me some consideration. What happens after that, is up to him. I'm sure he wouldn't apprecate M 80's going off after he goes to bed, or before he normally gets up.

Somebody wants to run louder than stock pipes? So be it. Hopefully, you're a considerate neighbor.

 

[Rumpole of the Bailey]

Good debate and nice to have so much international perspective.
Now the other fella I ride with regularly lives 'up country' from me. He rarely comes to my place, I normally pick him up and ride with him to a biker meeting we have each month 2 hours away.

He has a Honda 250 Rebel. However, just recently, his son (a miner) has left his Triumph Speedmaster in his charge. The Speedmaster has very loud aftermarket pipes.

Now the mate wears hearing aides except when riding the bike. He is 60 years old. How did he lose his hearing? From a steady noise above the acceptable limit for the human ear. We practice sign language on the bikes on our trips.

Yeah, loud pipes save lives. But how about, loud noise makes you deaf?
A defining point in our argument. The sticker on the frame of my bike tells me the acceptable limit my bike has for noise. Same sticker on your lawn mower and chain saw.

Just a point I wanted to make.
Horrace

 

[Kriswithak]

The problem is that when legislation is written it doesn't say "V-Twin" or "In line four", it says "Motorcycle". Besides, decibels are decibels no matter if they are read from a cruiser, a sport bike or a jet airplane.

Bruce

You strike me as a rather bitter person which is sad.
I'm not American so your state/post code doesn't mean anything to me. It could mean anything quite literally. Different areas have very different perspectives, communities and attitudes, something you might have been able to read into my comment if you took a deep breath before jumping down my throat. But don't worry I'll write down those details and make a post it note for "bitter and rude people come from here" shall I?
Everyone isn't going to agree with your opinion, if you can't deal with it a forums a bad place to be visiting.

The general community also isn't normally the 'group' who causes these legislations to be put into place. You come from a country where something like 30% of the population vote to elect one of the most powerful leaders in the world and your trying to tell me that the majority of people DID get up in arms about the sound of a motorcycle exhaust?
Small minority groups of very loud, sometimes influential, and generally very political people are the ones who get these laws passed. Mainly because most of the people who would stand against the overreactions we see are pretty laid back and often don't realise what they stand to lose until legislation has been passed. Many people just can't be bothered or just don't know what is going on. It changes and they adapt.
Its funny that guns kill people, and are used in so much crime in the USA, but that 'right' can't be taken away but a loud exhaust which realistically doesn't harm (but maybe annoy) anyone is. The main difference is if they tried to take away guns.... well the idea is laughable. If they got the same response at the suggestion to take away loud exhausts they wouldn't try that either.
Its political really, politicians love to be looking like they are doing something 'good' for the community, when people actually stand up and say 'no we won't accept this' often the latest grand standing ends up failing.

I don't really see the point you are argueing, we all agree that some pipes are too loud, in fact even amongst stock pipes there is a huge variance in the sound produced. If every single motorcyclist decided to stick with the stock exhaust I very much doubt the groups who want to see motorcycles gone would suddenly change subjects, they would chose something else to pick at or just change what they see as acceptable.
Something as simple as riding in low revs while in suburban areas can be the difference between a stock exhaust sounding fine and being too loud, and its still reliant on the hearer's opinion. To some it doesn't matter the actual volume all that matters is that its a bike.
So we have the choice of either all going for super quiet exhausts, or having a law enforced upon us that does it anyway, wow thats an awesome set of options.
Instead of having something taken from us lets just give it away! Then when the next thing they want to take from us comes up lets just bend over and take it :thumbup: yep thats definately a long term solution.

Probably the biggest step we could take to help the motorcycle image is just remove all those HD riders and their bikes (and similar), they are obnoxious and loud and scary looking. Never mind alot of them are really nice normal people!

I'm not going to continue argueing with you becaues your stance seems to be "(a)self regulate ourselves into oblivion, or (b)face off with the people who don't like us and lose" I'll take option (c) - fight for a bit of freedom.
If I lose at least I know what I stood for, and can have a bit of pride. That way the next generation, when they face the next challenge will have learnt something and hopefully have the rolemodels or older generations backup in standing up when its needed and making themselves heard.

I am pretty idealistic, and it can get me into trouble at times since these days "doing the right thing ain't doing the right thing!" but I'm me, and just accepting all the limitations people would often like to see placed simply because its something they can't or won't do, or don't approve of would be effectively be putting a ban on being myself.

To put it simply:
Them : :spank:
Me: :Flip:
Everyone else: :ban:

 

[RyanK]

The general community also isn't normally the 'group' who causes these legislations to be put into place. You come from a country where something like 30% of the population vote to elect one of the most powerful leaders in the world and your trying to tell me that the majority of people DID get up in arms about the sound of a motorcycle exhaust?
Small minority groups of very loud, sometimes influential, and generally very political people are the ones who get these laws passed. Mainly because most of the people who would stand against the overreactions we see are pretty laid back and often don't realise what they stand to lose until legislation has been passed. Many people just can't be bothered or just don't know what is going on. It changes and they adapt.
Its funny that guns kill people, and are used in so much crime in the USA, but that 'right' can't be taken away but a loud exhaust which realistically doesn't harm (but maybe annoy) anyone is. The main difference is if they tried to take away guns.... well the idea is laughable. If they got the same response at the suggestion to take away loud exhausts they wouldn't try that either.
Its political really, politicians love to be looking like they are doing something 'good' for the community, when people actually stand up and say 'no we won't accept this' often the latest grand standing ends up failing.

very well put

 

[abacall]

Bruce, Kris, thanks for keeping it civil. :thumbup:

This topic is straying a little into whether or not loud pipes infringe on other people's rights. In my opinion, we have entirely too much regulation in this country. It's in our nature to protect the group, but sometimes that can get in the way of our personal freedoms. Well, that's life.
I still have a choice, and I will exercise that freedom.

Loud pipes can help you get noticed.
Loud pipes can attract negative attention.

I really could care less if it bothers other people. I could care less if it causes negative perceptions of other bikers. Let's be realistic, their perceptions won't change whether or not I have loud pipes.

 

[Wavex]

I really could care less if it bothers other people. I could care less if it causes negative perceptions of other bikers. Let's be realistic, their perceptions won't change whether or not I have loud pipes.

That's a mature way to look at it

That's probably how all these obnoxious super loud cruiser guys look at it as well...

A little decency could help us all get along!

My Jardine is pretty loud (nowhere near the cruiser types, but still quite loud, similar to a 2 Bro's on the FZ), and I do try to annoy as few ppl as possible... especially if it's night time or in my neighborhood in the afternoon, I'll pull the clutch in and ride a gear high to make sure I don't wake up all the napping babies (including mine!) within a mile radius...

 

[stryken]

Its funny that guns kill people, and are used in so much crime in the USA, but that 'right' can't be taken away but a loud exhaust which realistically doesn't harm (but maybe annoy) anyone is. The main difference is if they tried to take away guns.... well the idea is laughable. If they got the same response at the suggestion to take away loud exhausts they wouldn't try that either.

First .. guns don't kill people they are inanimate objects and only lay there until picked up by a person, sorry had to be said.


The thing is in my neighborhood and I would venture to say most neighborhoods we don't have people driving down the road at all hours of the day and night shooting a gun and killing people. We do however have the cruiser/chopper crowd (a few others sure but mostly those) popping, snaping and thundering by at any given time day or night. You try sleeping through that on a fall night when all you wanted was to lay there with your window open and enjoy the cool breeze lofting in on you as you sleep. The problem isn't pipes however just as it isn't guns it's people. The thing with a gun however is it will stay in my gun cabinet quiet and harmless unless it is needed. How are you going to ride that cruiser/chopper courteously with pipes that can't even be quiet while its idling? In school we were taught that your right to freedom ends where another person's rights begin. I am thinking that if I stood outside Mr. Choppers house one morning at 2:00am and made as much racket as he does with his bike going past my house he would be offended to the point of doing something about it, don't you?

 

[abacall]

That's a mature way to look at it

That's probably how all these obnoxious super loud cruiser guys look at it as well...

A little decency could help us all get along!

I see your point. I guess not all people exercise common sense, or decency.

The exhaust on my car and my bike are aftermarket. And no, I don't go blaring around to annoy others. I drive and ride less aggressively than most people on public roads, and thereby my exhaust is not annoyingly loud. I got them for the performance first, it just happens that I love the sound as well. :Flash:

My "I really could care less if it bothers other people"comment is based on the fact that I don't change my behavior to better suit others needs unless I realize that I am endangering them.
The chopper exhausts that we are discussing are ridiculous, and those riders exercise neither common sense nor decency.

As for the average person's perception of bikers, I'm sticking to my comment. If they think we are a nuisance, your quiet exhaust will not change their minds.

A common psychological principle states that it takes 7 rights to correct a perceived wrong. So, for every squid people see, there should be 7 riders who are not.
You should see what Salt Lake is like. I see maybe one in every 20 people wear a helmet. Proper riding gear? Courteous riding? Forget it.

So, will my decent riding with Leos make the common public think motorcycles are a nuisance? Or will the guy with the stock exhaust riding like and ass and revving to 10K while on neighborhood roads piss people off?:thumbdown:

 

[Kriswithak]

First .. guns don't kill people they are inanimate objects and only lay there until picked up by a person, sorry had to be said.


The thing is in my neighborhood and I would venture to say most neighborhoods we don't have people driving down the road at all hours of the day and night shooting a gun and killing people. We do however have the cruiser/chopper crowd (a few others sure but mostly those) popping, snaping and thundering by at any given time day or night. You try sleeping through that on a fall night when all you wanted was to lay there with your window open and enjoy the cool breeze lofting in on you as you sleep. The problem isn't pipes however just as it isn't guns it people. The thing with a gun however is it will stay in my gun cabinet quiet and harmless unless it is needed. How are you going to ride that cruiser/chopper courteously with pipes that can't even be quiet while its idling? In school we were taught that your right to freedom ends where another person's rights begin. I am thinking that if I stood outside Mr. Choppers house one morning at 2:00am and made as much racket as he does with his bike going past my house he would be offended to the point of doing something about it, don't you?

Ahhh see thats my point exactly, its not necessarily the loud or unnaccepteably loud exhaust thats an issue its the lack of consideration shown by the owner/user. If the rider was a weekend warrior who only rode between say 10am and 6pm of a weekend it would probably still be unpleasant, but as with the playing of loud music they are keeping it within hours which shouldn't effect anyones sleep.
My main point with the gun arguement was that there is a negative side to the legal ownership of guns, but people defend the right because they feel its important. If we had the same response about exhausts it would be nigh on impossible for anyone to set severe limitations without the support of the motorcycling community.
You could probably have a neighbor on each side both with the same bike and pipes and have one being considerate, ei- not opening the throttle too far while in the suburbs, and the other being a total dick who simply rides and makes as much racket as possible. Its just really hard to make the dick change his ways, because he obviously has no consideration for others and probably doesn't care, whereas the person already doing the right thing would probably actually change his exhaust if he thought the local community really had a problem, or do something to limit the noise.

With cruisers there are alot which have pretty obnoxious exhausts, especially when they open them up. Its really good the manufacturers are starting to limit the exhausts they make to legal sound limits, but we really have to ask whether those people who don't care about the law or other people will just find someone to make them a straight through pipe, or buy something legal and modify it.
We have clubs here who the police had to get basically terrorism laws passed to deal with, not because they didn't have the power but basically because they where too afraid to do anything until the government gave them an open slate on anyone in a club, there was a incident at the airport where two rival gangs had a huge fight inside the airport despite security and one club member died.
It led to this huge reaction where now police are able to hold up anyone suspected of crime with absolutely no evidence as well as basically harrass anyone on a motorcycle. Medieval laws, that can be used against anyone.
The main outcome? Well there are now huge harrassment issues for people riding cruisers in the states this went through, the actual criminals generally have the money and lawyers to keep themselves out of trouble and the average honest joe blo is the one being screwed over. Recent information also showed that some of the real problem clubs don't even use motorcycles most of the time anymore.... they use cars.
All of this because the problem wasn't fixed using the laws currently in place which protect everyone and actually take into consideration the fact that not everyone of a certain 'group' are criminals. And also because the police where happy to ignore the issue because it wasn't a pleasant one until it got out of hand and the politicians got involved.

The problem we face is that you either encourage police to take out those real rogue elements, be it criminals or someone with an obnoxious exhaust (defect it) when its a small manageable problem, or you ban everything, give the police all the powers they want and end up unable to leave your door because the criminals and obnoxious exhaust owners are still there, but you also need to worry about the police now too!
There doesn't seem to be a middle ground, because the people doing the right thing suffer no matter what, but the people doing the wrong thing need extreme controls simply to bring them into line (and often a little bit of acceptance and some education would be easier and more long lasting)

As abacall said

In my opinion, we have entirely too much regulation in this country. It's in our nature to protect the group, but sometimes that can get in the way of our personal freedoms. Well, that's life.
I still have a choice, and I will exercise that freedom.

All of this being said it is a sidetrack from the actual debate of the thread, which is a much more easily answered question, its just agreeing on the answer thats hard!