Only in America...

[Wavex]

point being, its not only in america

I was obviously referring to occidental countries comparable to the US... to my knowledge, you won't see ppl carrying guns on their waist in kids parks in a lot of other countries... the countries you're referring to don't have kids parks in upscale areas they live in huts and kids are taken from a very young age, brain washed by propaganda, and thrown into whatever militia is around... different context all together.

 

[Wavex]

The guys obviously got 'Little man syndrome'

Who is he trying to impress? I reckon he must be trying to show off to the mums in the playground

What would the parents say to their kids,when they were asked 'mummy,why is that man carrying a gun?' 'Oh don't worry honey,it's alright to carry a gun.If a bad man came along,the nice man could start a firefight in the middle of the playground.That would be fun,wouldn't it?'

lmao...

So very interesting to see ppl's response, and 9 times out of 10 you can guess where they're from depending on their answer... :thumbup:

 

[Wavex]

Wow. Someone is in public with a tool on their side. Let's all press the panic button.



There is no issue here. I man is carrying a firearm. He has a right to do so. He is hurting nobody. If somebody does not like it, they should exercise their right to leave.

Who pressed the panic button? We stayed in the park and kept playing... no big deal... my point was simply that it was a bit out of place in my eyes that's all :rockon:

 

[champion221elite]

lmao...

So very interesting to see ppl's response, and 9 times out of 10 you can guess where they're from depending on their answer... :thumbup:

You typed exactly what I was thinking! I hope this thread can continue in a civil manner.

 

[Wavex]

From the US Center for Disease Control, the entity which tracks such things: Injury Mortality Reports

FYI, about 5 times as many people die on motorcycles than due to unintentional gun-related deaths.

From: GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense? (cites to the original studies included in the linked page)
"There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

There is one study, the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which in 1993, estimated 108,000 DGU's annually."

Even if we add in the homicides (to exclude legal intervention by police officers and private citizens) and suicides with firearms for the period between 1999 and 2007 (that's 8 years), the annual instances of Defensive Gun Use far outweigh the number of unlawful or non-defensive gun-related deaths.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled dismissal of the truth based on fear and an unfortunate lack of information. Ride safe.

Awesome thanks!!! So that closes the debate, MORE guns means MORE safety for all... that's great and I am glad to hear it

I still think that guy was showing off in the park with a useless unloaded weapon on his waist in a kids park! :thumbup:

 

[NineseveN]

And also, not to dismiss VEGASRIDER's terrible story, but this woman was someone I both knew and respected:

Gun-toting Pa. mom gets back concealed gun permit - USATODAY.com

LEBANON, Pa. (AP) — A mother who angered fellow parents when she openly carried a pistol to her 5-year-old daughter's soccer game got her concealed weapons permit back Tuesday after a Pennsylvania judge overruled a sheriff's decision to revoke it.

Meleanie Hain lost the permit after other parents complained about the presence of the gun during a soccer game on Sept. 11. Lebanon County Judge Robert Eby, who said he also is a gun owner with a concealed weapons permit, said the law required him to return Hain's permit.

But he questioned her judgment, saying she "scared the devil" out of others at the soccer field.

"Fear doesn't belong at a kid's soccer game from any source," Eby said.

Hain testified at the Tuesday hearing that she did not intend to intimidate anyone but felt she had to carry the gun openly because warm-weather clothing made it difficult to hide a firearm. She said her husband's line of work, which was not disclosed, made her a "greater target" than the average person.

"I'm certainly not looking to shoot anyone over a goal," she told Eby, also adding that she had carried an unconcealed firearm without any problems in the past.

George Christianson, a lawyer for the Lebanon County Sheriff's office, said the decision would not be appealed.

Hain said she was satisfied and plans to take her gun to a youth soccer game in the future.

"People have the right to voice their opinion ... and I have a right to my Second Amendment right," she said. "A gun-free zone says to a criminal: 'Easy target.'"

Stupid right? I mean, why would you need a gun at a child's soccer game? You should be as safe there as you are in your own home, right? Well, nearly a year after she got her permit back and her conduct was vindicated, Meleanie was murdered in her own home, by her husband while her own handgun was not at her side, since she was "safe" at home, but in a backpack hung on a door. The risk to be attacked in a park or at home is very low, but the consequences of that risk being visited upon you can be fatal. ATGATT.

NEW YORK (CBS/AP) A friend of gut-toting soccer mom Meleanie Hain was chatting with her on a video web cam when her husband, Scott Hain, shot her to death in cold blood, say authorities.

The friend, who has not been named, "observed Scott Hain standing over where Meleanie was and discharging a handgun several times," Lebanon, Pa. Police Chief Daniel Wright said at a news conference.

The man, who was described as a friend of both Scott and Meleanie Hain, called 911.

Police say Scott Hain, 33, used his own gun to fire several shots into his 30-year-old wife perhaps at the same time as she was washing dishes in the kitchen. Then he killed himself in an upstairs bedroom.

Meleanie Hain's infamous loaded pistol - with a bullet ready in the chamber - was in a backpack hanging from the front door.

The couple's three young children were home just before the murder-suicide, but authorities stopped short of saying they were home at the time. The online friend heard a shot and screams and turned to see Scott Hain firing, they said.

"He kept open his Web cam episode; however, he heard nothing or saw nothing after that," Wright said. The chat was apparently not recorded.

Meleanie Hain became a voice of the gun-rights movement last year when she fought for the right to carry a holstered pistol at her young daughter's soccer games. Other parents complained, prompting a sheriff to revoke her concealed-weapons permit, a decision a judge later overturned.

"I'm just a soccer mom who has always openly carried (a firearm), and I've never had a problem before," Hain said last fall. "I don't understand why this is happening to me."

The Hains later sued the sheriff who had revoked her gun permit. The $1 million suit, which claims they suffered emotional distress and lost customers for her home baby-sitting service, remains pending against Lebanon County Sheriff Michael DeLeo.

Scott Hain, a parole officer, owned the 9 mm handgun used to kill his wife. He then killed himself with a shotgun, authorities said after Friday's autopsies. Police found several handguns, a shotgun, two rifles and several hundred rounds of ammunition in their Lebanon home, as well as six spent shell casings in the kitchen.

Friends and neighbors told police the couple had been having marital problems, but police knew of no immediate cause of the violence. Scott Hain was living at the family home at the time, Wright said.

Their three children are ages 2, 6 and 10.

Neighbor Aileen Fortna has said the children told another neighbor that "daddy shot mommy."

The judge who restored Meleanie Hain's concealed-weapon permit last year questioned her judgment and said she had "scared the devil" out of other parents at the soccer field.

Maybe it would have been smarter to conceal the gun, however, in some states and in some circumstances, that's not a legal or viable option. And sometimes, open carry is simply preferable for other tactical or legal reasons (way beyond the scope of this thread). I understand how people feel, and why, but personal feelings shouldn't be a legitimate reason to legislate or hinder the lawful and harmless conduct of others. Unsubstantiated what-ifs and fears are feelings. Take care all.

 

[Wavex]

You typed exactly what I was thinking! I hope this thread can continue in a civil manner.

Why not? It's been very civil so far... ppl expressing their personal point of views...

BTW, for the record, I did not intend this thread to become a political debate about whether guns are good or bad (that's been hashed a trillion times online already and could go on forever), and I apologize as I should have known, but it's still interesting to see what people think about this particular situation, so I propose that instead of closing this thread, we try to stick to the topic...

 

[NineseveN]

Awesome thanks!!! So that closes the debate, MORE guns means MORE safety for all... that's great and I am glad to hear it

I still think that guy was showing off in the park with an useless unloaded weapon on his waist in a kids park! :thumbup:

I think it probably more based on political speech (Google "empty holster protest" to see what I mean) than practical purposes if the gun, was in fact, unloaded. I don't blame you for being concerned, especially with your kids there, and I legally carry everywhere I go. My main concern is when one's concerns or feelings turn into arguments about how something should be illegal or the cops should have been called without cause or reason. That, to me is mob rule at worst, and political harassment at best. It's shameful either way IMHO.


Did I mention that I love your bike?

 

[Wavex]

I didn't even think of calling the cops. As a matter of fact this was really not a big deal to me or my family at all... it was just funny and out of place to us that's all. You can get from my original posts and the following ones that this whole thing was presented in a lighthearted way on my side...

I love my bike too thanks

 

[Sparky10]

Who pressed the panic button? We stayed in the park and kept playing... no big deal... my point was simply that it was a bit out of place in my eyes that's all :rockon:

I wasn't saying you did. Just from the few responses here that I read (way too much baseless fear to read through the whole thread), clearly many would be panicking from the sight of a mere inanimate object.

 

[Wavex]

You keep talking about all the ppl with baseless fear, but what about the fear of ppl who feel they need to carry 24/7? Isn't that based on baseless fear if you consider the real world statistics?
What's the probability of me ever needing a weapon to protect myself? In 31 years of existence, and of all the people I know, NO-ONE EVER needed a gun to protect themselves... To me, the probability of needing a weapon on me at any given time is the same as winning the lottery... and I don't play the lottery for that very reason

Anyway, yes ppl would react differently than you in this situation, that's just life when you're on a forum with ppl from all over the world, from different cultures... and you don't need to be condescending about it.

 

[Tailgate]

Wow, is this some kind of FZ6 forum new record? Some 10 pages of posts in LESS THAN 24 HOURS! I doubt that even PORN gets hits so fast.

 

[Sparky10]

You keep talking about all the ppl with baseless fear, but what about the fear of ppl who feel they need to carry 24/7? Isn't that based on baseless fear if you consider the real world statistics?
What's the probability of me ever needing a weapon to protect myself? In 31 years of existence, and of all the people I know, NO-ONE EVER needed a gun to protect themselves... To me, the probability of needing a weapon on me at any given time is the same as winning the lottery... and I don't play the lottery for that very reason

Anyway, yes ppl would react differently than you in this situation, that's just life when you're on a forum with ppl from all over the world, from different cultures... and you don't need to be condescending about it.

Who is to say what is a valid reason to carry a firearm? The answer: the person carrying the firearm. Nobody knows this persons' reason for choosing to carry. Maybe he does have a baseless fear. Maybe he has a verifiable reason to believe his life may be put in jeopardy. Or maybe, he just lives by the motto of "rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it." Nobody knows. But it doesn't matter either way. He is simply exercising his right to bear arms, which requires no justification.

What I do know is that a lot of people get their panties in a bunch at the site of a firearm, which is nothing more than a tool. Simply an inanimate object. Yes, I am aware that we are on a forum and many people will react to a simple inanimate object with blind fear. It is very sad for those people.

But it becomes a real problem when these same type people manage to get laws changed to violate the rights of the rest of us based on said fear. And it has happened on more than one occasion (see the 1994 scary looking gun ban as one national example).

 

[ozzieboy]

Yup, it would look very out of place here, for a guy to be carrying a firearm in almost any situation, so that would be a shocker. Having said that, if he was a cop and required to carry, then it beats the heck out of leaving it in a car.

I grew up with rifles, and served in the armed forces. I'm not particularly afraid of guns, but there is next to no need to carry one here (A fact I am very glad of).

I've noticed a large proportion of the people trained to drive cars are total numbskulls, that I wouldn't trust with anything more dangerous than a wet sponge. Train these same people to use a weapon....Same result I'm tipping.

At least when I'm riding I'm looking out for these numbskulls. I'd hate to have to keep my eye out for them trying to stop a bank robbery in a mall. Most people in a calm relaxed atmosphere aren't very good shots...lol.

The whole guns/no guns argument seems a little pointless to me though. The guns are there. If there were no guns, then no one would need to carry. If they make people hand them in, only the honest folk will, and now they are at the mercy of the bad guys.

There ain't no easy answer.

 

[NineseveN]

You keep talking about all the ppl with baseless fear, but what about the fear of ppl who feel they need to carry 24/7? Isn't that based on baseless fear if you consider the real world statistics?
What's the probability of me ever needing a weapon to protect myself? In 31 years of existence, and of all the people I know, NO-ONE EVER needed a gun to protect themselves... To me, the probability of needing a weapon on me at any given time is the same as winning the lottery... and I don't play the lottery for that very reason

Yet you wear a helmet and, as far as I can tell, preach ATGATT.

Is wearing your helmet and gear when you ride being driven by a baseless fear? Do you realize that (statistically speaking) you're more likely to be the victim of a violent attack or to be put into a position where a defensive gun use could prevent such an attack than you are to crash with either fatal or non-fatal conditions) on your motorcycle?

It's all about risk analysis. Yes, the probability that I personally will need a gun to defend my life is low (though I personally have actually been in that situation and lived to tell the tale), the consequences of finding myself in that situation without that means of defense are severe as it could result in serious injury or death. I train and carry a gun for the same reason I wear a helmet and armored gear when I'm on a bike, why I buckle my seat belt, drive a car with air bags, have fire extinguishers, run smoke alarms in my home and have life and medical insurance. I may never need any of it, but the consequences of needing it and not having it are absolutely catastrophic. Personally, I consider people who don't accept and address the severity of their decision to not engage in all of the above as the ones who are being irrational.

Remember, before 9/11, statistics told us that there was a near zero chance that we would need to screen passengers for box cutters. The chance was low, but the severity of it coming to fruition had very real and very dire consequences.


The baseless fear is that a gun in a holster is dangerous. Guns do not go off by themselves. If cops and their holstered weapons do not make you nervous, then neither should regular civilians with holstered weapons. To make the distinction requires a logical disconnect and a misunderstanding of the facts of the matter concerning both.

The baseless fear is that a guy walking around doing his normal, daily activities (with his family/kids no less) with an openly displayed and holstered handgun is a danger. Such a scenario has never happened in this country that I am aware of. If it has, it seems to be so low on the frequency scale that it completely fails to register. The civilians who commit crimes with guns;
A. Do not seem to carry them openly for people to see.
B. Do routinely not play with their kids in the park (or do other normal things like everyone else around them) before doing so.

 

[Tailgate]

Do you realize that (statistically speaking) you're more likely to be the victim of a violent attack or to be put into a position where a defensive gun use could prevent such an attack than you are to crash with either fatal or non-fatal conditions) on your motorcycle?

NineseveN: I enjoyed your post (really) but is that really true about there be a better chance of of a need for gun to defend oneself than to be injured/killed in a bike accident? (just wondering) Anyway, hey, probably MOST people on this forum might AGREE that the guy in the playground---maybe he's concerned about an attack....from a PIT BULL! Some of those animals are downright vicious and almost unstoppable once they decide to launch into you. Yeah, maybe, if Wavex asked him he might have said: "I'm concerned about me or my children being being the target of a pit bull attack, thus I'm carrying. Sounds good, but then, what good is the gun without ammo, huh?

 

[NineseveN]

NineseveN: I enjoyed your post (really) but is that really true about there be a better chance of of a need for gun to defend oneself than to be injured/killed in a bike accident? (just wondering)

In a rough sense, I believe so.

Studying the CDC data in both fatal and non-fatal motorcycle injuries from 2000-2007 (the most recent and largest time period where we have data for both), we see an annual average of a little over 281,000 injuries (4,300 fatal, 277,000 non-fatal). Every national, peer-reviewed survey or government study estimates the number of defensive gun uses in this country as much higher than 281,000. While we could probably employ more advanced statistical models to get a better picture, when the discrepancy between motorcycle injuries and defensive gun uses shows a minimum magnitude of 280%, I'd say it's not that much of a stretch to make such a conclusion.

Anyway, hey, probably MOST people on this forum might AGREE that the guy in the playground---maybe he's concerned about an attack....from a PIT BULL! Some of those animals are downright vicious and almost unstoppable once they decide to launch into you. Yeah, maybe, if Wavex asked him he might have said: "I'm concerned about me or my children being being the target of a pit bull attack, thus I'm carrying. Sounds good, but then, what good is the gun without ammo, huh?

I'd suggest that he was doing so as a form of political speech in protest that California does not recognize his right to do exactly that. The gun in the holster is symbolic. People on college campuses and in states that do not allow private carry (open or concealed) see this kind of a statement made rather often these days. IMHO, I agree with the statement, but carrying an unloaded weapon in plain sight brings about additional risk. While it may serve as a visual deterrent , it's also a potential liability since the gun can be seen but not effectively used.

 

[Wavex]

About everyone I know that owns a motorcycle ended up crashing it eventually, and the gear they were wearing served its purpose.

About everyone I know that owns guns tell me they never ever came even close to using it against some "bad guys"...

You telling me that ATGATT on a bike is the same as carrying a loaded weapon with you 24/7 is huge stretch IMHO (you may live in a very dangerous area though, and then I take back what I said).

But again, that's not the point of this thread and it doesn't really matter... I think we all agree that everyone in the US has the right to a gun to protect himself and his family like good old cowboys did when the constitution was written... Everyone needs to make a decision for himself just like wearing proper gear and carrying proper insurance, and so on. Fine.

Going to a kids park with a few dozen moms in it, in a beach town that has virtually no crime at all, in the middle of the afternoon, with an unloaded very visible weapon on your waist is a bit overboard IMO. Some people think it is totally normal and have no idea why anyone would consider this weird.

Is that a fair summary?

 

[Popeye70]

My background: I'm a Norwegian, living in Norway. A country where the police do not carry guns unless they are called out to a dangerous situation. Seing a person carrying on the street happens maybe 5-10 times a year at most, and only by police or military personel, and in 9/10 of the cases it is because of some high profile arrangement (politicians or royalty visiting etc). Civilians do not carry guns, not even hidden. I consider myself lucky to be living in such a place.

What puzzles me is - how did USA end up in a situation where Joe Average feels he has to arm himself to ensure his own safety? Is it the result of a country "built with guns" - they were always there to begin with? Is it an arms race between the good guys and the not so good guys? Is the crime rate so high, or is the crime so violent that guns are needed to give the public a sense of security? With my background, I find it strange that there seem to be such a big need for guns.

Note: This is just me trying to understand your society (the US of A), not trying to start a fight...

 

[Wavex]

What I do know is that a lot of people get their panties in a bunch at the site of a firearm, which is nothing more than a tool. Simply an inanimate object. Yes, I am aware that we are on a forum and many people will react to a simple inanimate object with blind fear. It is very sad for those people.

Don't be sad for us, we're fine

So a gun is an inanimate object and no-one should fear it. The ppl that do are blind and full of fear and ignorance. OK.

Just like a screw driver or my torque wrench, a gun should not trigger any emotional reaction in ppl at all, and the ones that do are stupid and ignorant.

What about a bazooka... just an inanimate object right... why would anyone fear a bazooka? What about a nuclear bomb? just a simple inanimate object, no big deal... shove it in the tool shed and move on right? Why on earth would anyone fear an atomic bomb?

Stupid ppl...

:Flip::BLAA: