Bike won't start

Gary in NJ

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Such is state of forum diagnostics. People with knowledge give advice, and person seeking said knowledge say “ I did that” without actually pausing to understand the knowledge.

Once the engine lit-off with a bit of starting fluid we focused on the number one cause of fuel-related starting problems; the fuel pump and filter assembly.

Maybe the information was too nuanced. Maybe it wasn’t sexy enough. Maybe it was denial. But the obvious answer was brushed off and we all went down a rabbit hole

I’m glad the bike is running, and I’m also glad that a bit of self discovery helped sort through the issue. The lesson for the OP is to dig deeper when given what may appear to be simple advice. The lesson for those that give advice is to never assume that someone understands the advice, and to give too much info. Such is the state of forum diagnostics.
 

Alkali Fatahu

New Member
Just curious, from an earlier post , #17:

Quote: " I have inspected the filter and it is fine. Meanwhile, I bought a new pump and fixed it and still the won't start. " End quote..

Huh???



The internal filter-clogged:
.View attachment 73596
I did inspect the filter and it was absolutely fine. The dirt I said was the culprit was not on the filter. It was inside the fuel passage in the pump housing, specifically between the pump housing discharge nozzle and intake nozzle.

I need to let you get me clearly. The discharge nozzle of the pump itself fits firmly into the intake nozzle of the pump housing. The discharge nozzle of the pump housing then connects firmly to a rubber tubing the goes to feed the injectors. The dirt was in between the pump housing intake and discharge nozzles. I couldn't imagine there could be dirt in there, giving the fact that the fuel passes through a filter even before it enters the intake nozzle of the pump it self.
The filter shown in your attachment was the one I inspected and it was fine.
 

Motogiro

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I try to give what I think is good information, I know troubleshooting can take many different avenues. Although I do see the potential lack of technical understanding I don't assume that a person can not use more detailed information.
I've learned from my own experience as well as others a lot about me and the power of our collective experience as the person needing help and being a helper.
Many times the student brings a gift to the teacher. :)
 

Motogiro

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I did inspect the filter and it was absolutely fine. The dirt I said was the culprit was not on the filter. It was inside the fuel passage in the pump housing, specifically between the pump housing discharge nozzle and intake nozzle.

I need to let you get me clearly. The discharge nozzle of the pump itself fits firmly into the intake nozzle of the pump housing. The discharge nozzle of the pump housing then connects firmly to a rubber tubing the goes to feed the injectors. The dirt was in between the pump housing intake and discharge nozzles. I couldn't imagine there could be dirt in there, giving the fact that the fuel passes through a filter even before it enters the intake nozzle of the pump it self.
The filter shown in your attachment was the one I inspected and it was fine.
This could be a case where finer particulate got past the filter and caused a problem. This particulate could also be cause by other component/s in the fuel that formed post filter.
 

Alkali Fatahu

New Member
Such is state of forum diagnostics. People with knowledge give advice, and person seeking said knowledge say “ I did that” without actually pausing to understand the knowledge.

Once the engine lit-off with a bit of starting fluid we focused on the number one cause of fuel-related starting problems; the fuel pump and filter assembly.

Maybe the information was too nuanced. Maybe it wasn’t sexy enough. Maybe it was denial. But the obvious answer was brushed off and we all went down a rabbit hole

I’m glad the bike is running, and I’m also glad that a bit of self discovery helped sort through the issue. The lesson for the OP is to dig deeper when given what may appear to be simple advice. The lesson for those that give advice is to never assume that someone understands the advice, and to give too much info. Such is the state of forum diagnostics.
I'm sorry if I disregard information that could have helped solve the problem quickly but I don't remember any suggestion that the fuel passage within the pump housing could be dirty and should be checked.
This could be a case where finer particulate got past the filter and caused a problem. This particulate could also be cause by other component/s in the fuel that formed post filter.
Absolutely!
 

Alkali Fatahu

New Member
This could be a case where finer particulate got past the filter and caused a problem. This particulate could also be cause by other component/s in the fuel that formed post filter.
In my earlier post, I remember I indicated the the bike's inability to start was preceded by a ticking noise. The ticking noise has not gone. Because of that, I think, the bike has lost power. If I opened the throttle more, the noise gets worse and the bike does not response in speed to the throttle opening.
Assuming one is sitting on the bike, the noise is coming from the right side of the engine. I earlier researched and had information that it could be the valves or the cam chain or the cam chain tensioner. Any advise, please?
 

Motogiro

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At this point it might be a good idea to do a compression test.
Could be that what made it past the filter made it's way into the intake passage and is sticking a valve.
Does it idle smoothly?
 
Last edited:

trepetti

It's all good!
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Such is state of forum diagnostics. People with knowledge give advice, and person seeking said knowledge say “ I did that” without actually pausing to understand the knowledge.

Once the engine lit-off with a bit of starting fluid we focused on the number one cause of fuel-related starting problems; the fuel pump and filter assembly.

Maybe the information was too nuanced. Maybe it wasn’t sexy enough. Maybe it was denial. But the obvious answer was brushed off and we all went down a rabbit hole

I’m glad the bike is running, and I’m also glad that a bit of self discovery helped sort through the issue. The lesson for the OP is to dig deeper when given what may appear to be simple advice. The lesson for those that give advice is to never assume that someone understands the advice, and to give too much info. Such is the state of forum diagnostics.
Nicely said Gary. I see what you mean.....
 

Gary in NJ

Junior Member
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Regarding the ticking noise, I would try to identify where it is coming from. You can make a simple tool from a 1-inch wooden dowel (about a foot long) that will allow you to listen to what is happening inside the engine. Think of it as a poor mans stethoscope (of course, if you have access to an actual stethoscope - use that). I would test the following locations;

1. Right side of the engine along the cylinder. If the ticking comes from here you have an issue with the timing chain, ACCT (automatic cam chain tensionor) or both.

2. Ride side engine case. A ticking from this location could be from the clutch mechanism. If the noise disappears when the clutch lever is engaged it could be a broken disk or friction plate. If the noise is independent of clutch actuation, there could be an issue with the primary drive or one of the bearings.

3. Left side engine case. A ticking noise here could result from a screw that holds the stator in place coming loose. If that has happened it's shedding metal on each pass, wearing parts down - quickly. It could also be the nut that holds the stator has come loose. Both of these failures, while simple, can get expensive fast.

4. Noise is coming from both the left and ride side cases. If its the same on both ends, you likely have a spun main bearing. Based on your description above, this is a possibility. However with a bad bearing the ticking is usually there when the engine accelerates and decelerates, but not present under steady-state throttle opening.

5. Noise coming from the head. Something is amiss in the cam drive or valves. If the ticking is coming from the top of the engine, do a leak-down compression (differential compression) test. This test will identify whether the problem is in the intake or exhaust valves.

Regardless of where the ticking is coming from, a ticking sound is an indication of an internal failure and needs to be addressed. While it may be a simple tick now, it could lead to catastrophic engine failure in a minute, an hour...next year - there's no way to know.
 

Gary in NJ

Junior Member
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If you need to perform a leak-down test, you will need a leak-down (aka a differential compression) tester and an air compressor. The inexpensive units sold by Harbor Freight are fine for a garage mechanic. It's also good to have a helper to hold the nut on the left side of the crank shaft at TDC while you perform the test and if necessary diagnose the problem. You will need a real good (long) breaker bar to hold against the pressure. Alternatively the bike could be put into gear...but in my experience that is more a hassle then just doing it correctly.

To conduct the test, the engine is held at TDC (top dead center or top of the compression stroke) for cylinder number one, and a reference value of air is added to the cylinder. There are two gauges on test equipment, one shows the reference pressure and the other shows the amount of pressure that the cylinder you are testing can hold. This procedure is repeated for each of the four cylinders.

Typically if the cylinder is holding 90% of the reference pressure (so if you used 80 psi, it should hold 72 psi) no further investigating is required. If it is below 90% you will need to discover why the cylinder is not holding pressure. Air escaping from the tail pipe is an indication that an exhaust valve or seat has failed. Air escaping from the throttle body is an indication that an intake valve or seat has failed. Air coming from the crankcase breather is an indication that one of the rings has failed.
 

Alkali Fatahu

New Member
If you need to perform a leak-down test, you will need a leak-down (aka a differential compression) tester and an air compressor. The inexpensive units sold by Harbor Freight are fine for a garage mechanic. It's also good to have a helper to hold the nut on the left side of the crank shaft at TDC while you perform the test and if necessary diagnose the problem. You will need a real good (long) breaker bar to hold against the pressure. Alternatively the bike could be put into gear...but in my experience that is more a hassle then just doing it correctly.

To conduct the test, the engine is held at TDC (top dead center or top of the compression stroke) for cylinder number one, and a reference value of air is added to the cylinder. There are two gauges on test equipment, one shows the reference pressure and the other shows the amount of pressure that the cylinder you are testing can hold. This procedure is repeated for each of the four cylinders.

Typically if the cylinder is holding 90% of the reference pressure (so if you used 80 psi, it should hold 72 psi) no further investigating is required. If it is below 90% you will need to discover why the cylinder is not holding pressure. Air escaping from the tail pipe is an indication that an exhaust valve or seat has failed. Air escaping from the throttle body is an indication that an intake valve or seat has failed. Air coming from the crankcase breather is an indication that one of the rings has failed.
The noise is coming from the right side of the engine. I opened the side cover and found that the timing chain is loosed. It is, however, tight at the tensioner side but loosed at the opposite side. Find attached, a video of that.
 

Gary in NJ

Junior Member
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No video attached. What is the condition of the chain dampers? If they are cracked or broken that will cause a ticking. Is the ACCT at its service limit?
 
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