Yay America!!

[Hellgate]

I saw this on a bumper sticker at a gun show:

"If guns kill people then pencils misspell words."

To our friends outside of the US, yes there are things called Gun Shows were people come to buy, sell and trade all manner of firearms and firearms related items and no firearm related items. They are pretty fun to attend and you can really meet some waaaaay out people.

I choose not to carry a firearm but I do enjoy the sport of shooting; trap, skeet, targets, etc., and I would hate to not be able to enjoy those sports. Not a hunter however, that is way God created the grocery store.

I own about 4 or 5 firearms (shows you how longs its been since I've looked at them) locked away in the gun safe.

 

[Nelly]

But Dang it Nelly you do. You do live in a society where you may have to take anothers life to defend yours or your wife or your children.
You very very much do.

If I remember right it was your house that was broken into and robbed while you were all asleep. Had that person decided to harm your wife, or your children you are not legally able the means to defend yourself.

I promise I can find report after report in your country where women are raped and murdered, pensioners are beaten, robbed and even killed without the right to defend themselves.

Promise man.

There are areas of your country where the police do not respond for 15 minutes to days later. They can only mop up, take down the names and go oh well.

Its the same here.
We have a requirement to defend ourselves and our property. Each one is allowed to choose the path of it can never happen to me, or to take their own safety seriously.

I can not imagine living somewhere that self defense is illegal and criminals know it.

Yes Steve don't remind me,
I was burgled one night. Fortunately I disturbed the scum bag and they left.
The majority of burglaries in the UK are not violent. I don't know why?
It may be due to the very lenient sentences for non violent crime?
I am sure that you can find lots of reports of violent crime in the UK. As you have said these are the stories that fuel the media. It has to be taken into context in terms of frequency per capita. If logic was correct you could argue that because a robber knows that a house hold may have an armed tenant they would give it a miss. As all of you guys have stated being attacked in your own home is a real threat. So that blows that logic out the water.

I think the thing that really lets the UK citizen down are the penalties for crime.
For instance a non violent burglary would get the offender a minimal 3-6 month sentence with time off for good behavior. There is no deterrent as our jails are full.

It is a myth to say that a person cannot defend themselves in the UK, we are aloud to use reasonable force. If the person had a knife I could use a bat to neutralise the threat as that is reasonable. I am not allowed to carry on beating the scum bag if the threat was neutralised with the first blow.

Householders and the use of force against intruders

I don't think you guys are wrong for having firearms. I come from a family where we used to use them, store them and enjoy them responsibly. I still think its sad when we have to consider the only option is to take another life.

 

[necrotimus]

I hate to disagree with both parties but the presence of guns or the absence of guns will not impact the amount or violent nature of crimes. It is like saying ice cream causes crime. If you look at ice cream sales you will notice that when ice cream sales are highest so is crime. The two have nothing to do with each other but the data and trends are there.

America as a WHOLE is now on the shortest fuse I have ever seen. Ten years ago who ever heard of road rage? Ten years ago were you more or less likely to tell someone off because they were rude to you?

Fundamentally I don't know what happened and I don't know what caused the shift but people no longer are courteous, kind, or respectful.

Will removing guns solve the problem? No, if someone is willing to get out of their car and shoot someone because someone didn't use their blinker than you take the gun out of the equation and that person is just as likely to get out of their car and do something. Yes the amount of shooting deaths may go down but the amount of violent crimes will remain the same.

Will giving everyone a gun to defend themselves solve the problem? No, because again the root problem is people are more than willing to escalate the issue for the most suspect of reasons.

And I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone else. I have given people the finger, I have gotten in people's faces, and I have thrown punches. No one counts to ten anymore in America they just act and that is the problem.

So both sides can pick up or lay down their guns what you should be concentrating on is the real issue... why the f can't you idiots be nice to each other

 

[aussiejules]

1 sorry wright but i take offence to you blaming me for someone dying for not having a gun( im not blaming you for everyone that has died by a gun)
2 You guys seem to think we hate guns, sorry wrong again i love shooting, i reckon it is a great sport and thoroughy enjoy firing off rounds.
3 I agree with nelly penalties for crimes are way too leanient and i think the governments are letting us down
4 Where im scared for everyone is yes people are getting more agro and the fact of being able to pull a gun and put their agro through that weapon is terrifying to me
5 i dont see your crime rate down due to every body having guns, im not saying it wouldnt be higher(i dont know) but you dont have a zero crime rate, neither do we
6 i dont honestly think you guys could ban guns because crime and scum bags have unfortunately gone too far to go back, and really coould not imagine what would be needed to rectify that

 

[Nelly]

I hate to disagree with both parties but the presence of guns or the absence of guns will not impact the amount or violent nature of crimes. It is like saying ice cream causes crime. If you look at ice cream sales you will notice that when ice cream sales are highest so is crime. The two have nothing to do with each other but the data and trends are there.

America as a WHOLE is now on the shortest fuse I have ever seen. Ten years ago who ever heard of road rage? Ten years ago were you more or less likely to tell someone off because they were rude to you?

Fundamentally I don't know what happened and I don't know what caused the shift but people no longer are courteous, kind, or respectful.

I think that you have hit the nail on the head, people have changed. We live in a society where the individual is not expected to take responsibility for themselves or their offspring. In the UK in the last 20 years we have had a shift where welfare is no longer a safety net but a life style choice. This makes me feel really sad.

Nelly

 

[blchandl2]

It is the evolution of man....

 

[mglowe]

...(shows you how longs its been since I've looked at them) locked away in the gun safe.

Hellgate it's time for a "Rust" check wouldn't you say.

 

[mglowe]

Its easy to just avoid states that feel criminals should have a advantage, and citizens should just let them do as they please.

Indeed, the state Iowa is one of these that should be avoided.

Washington State was cool, however, these days it would not be good for me. I'll leave it at that... I must go to my anger management class now.

 

[DecepticonDon]

I haven't seen the whole thread, but for our fellow humans that don't live in the U.S.,
-You guys have no idea how VIOLENT criminals are over here
----They are ANIMALS, They know nothing but force. Frighten one, he would rather kill you than piss on you.

-I don't carry because I expect to use my weapon, I carry just in case I need it. You know its the same story, "They thought something like that would never happen; They were going to the movies like they always do." Then the $hit hits the fan, and if you have a weapon to defend yourself and your family, you have improved you odds of surviving a criminal encounter.

A firearm is an inanimate object. My 20 Firearms have never killed anyone.
It is not the law-abiding citizen's guns that are the problem.
WE have a Criminal problem in the U.S.
Not a gun problem.
More children die in swimming pools than they die from gunfire, unless you count 18 Year old violent drug dealers as children.

 

[hardway]

A firearm is an inanimate object. My 20 Firearms have never killed anyone.
It is not the law-abiding citizen's guns that are the problem.
WE have a Criminal problem in the U.S.
Not a gun problem.
More children die in swimming pools than they die from gunfire, unless you count 18 Year old violent drug dealers as children.

I agree with your sentiments, and envy your sweet arsenal there, but just a thought. Is it wise to show that you own a suppressed firearm on the internet?
Also, is that one of the new m1's, or an ar15?

 

[blchandl2]

I haven't seen the whole thread, but for our fellow humans that don't live in the U.S.,
-You guys have no idea how VIOLENT criminals are over here
----They are ANIMALS, They know nothing but force. Frighten one, he would rather kill you than piss on you.

-I don't carry because I expect to use my weapon, I carry just in case I need it. You know its the same story, "They thought something like that would never happen; They were going to the movies like they always do." Then the $hit hits the fan, and if you have a weapon to defend yourself and your family, you have improved you odds of surviving a criminal encounter.

A firearm is an inanimate object. My 20 Firearms have never killed anyone.
It is not the law-abiding citizen's guns that are the problem.
WE have a Criminal problem in the U.S.
Not a gun problem.
More children die in swimming pools than they die from gunfire, unless you count 18 Year old violent drug dealers as children.

Gotta love your caption

 

[wrightme43]

I will apoligise for giving offense. I still stand by my statement however.

People who will not fight for the right defend themselves are responsible for the right being taken from those who need it.

I feel that from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet.

I promise it is not just you. It is society as a whole but it is made of individuals who fail to act. You are one of them and so in my mind you are personally responsible, it is the only way I know how to get my point accross.


I carry for the same reason I wear a helmet. I more than likely wont need it today, but if I do, I cant go home and get it.

I am a part of what keeps the wolves at bay.

Just the other day right accross the street two idiots with guns broke into a resteraunt where I eat lunch alot. I know these girls. The guys shot into the ceiling and hit one of the girls with his fist and robbed the place. These girls are still scared as they should be. None of them were armed. Had they been armed and practiced, and thought and planned and taken action there more than likely would of been two dead goblins vs. what we have today is 5 terrified girls.

I prefer dead goblins.
I will continue to talk to them about getting thier CCDW. Why not? We have this right here.

The bearing of arms is the essential medium through which the individual asserts both his social power and his participation in politics as a responsible moral being... (Historian J.G.A. Po****, describing the beliefs of the founders of the U.S.)​

There is nothing like having your finger on the trigger of a gun to reveal who you really are. Life or death in one twitch — ultimate decision, with the ultimate price for carelessness or bad choices.
It is a kind of acid test, an initiation, to know that there is lethal force in your hand and all the complexities and ambiguities of moral choice have fined down to a single action: fire or not?
In truth, we are called upon to make life-or-death choices more often than we generally realize. Every political choice ultimately reduces to a choice about when and how to use lethal force, because the threat of lethal force is what makes politics and law more than a game out of which anyone could opt at any time.
But most of our life-and-death choices are abstract; their costs are diffused and distant. We are insulated from those costs by layers of institutions we have created to specialize in controlled violence (police, prisons, armies) and to direct that violence (legislatures, courts). As such, the lessons those choices teach seldom become personal to most of us.
Nothing most of us will ever do combines the moral weight of life-or-death choice with the concrete immediacy of the moment as thoroughly as the conscious handling of instruments deliberately designed to kill. As such, there are lessons both merciless and priceless to be learned from bearing arms — lessons which are not merely instructive to the intellect but transformative of one's whole emotional, reflexive, and moral character.
The first and most important of these lessons is this: it all comes down to you.
No one's finger is on the trigger but your own. All the talk-talk in your head, all the emotions in your heart, all the experiences of your past — these things may inform your choice, but they can't move your finger. All the socialization and rationalization and justification in the world, all the approval or disapproval of your neighbors — none of these things can pull the trigger either. They can change how you feel about the choice, but only you can actually make the choice. Only you. Only here. Only now. Fire, or not?
A second is this: never count on being able to undo your choices.
If you shoot someone through the heart, dead is dead. You can't take it back. There are no do-overs. Real choice is like that; you make it, you live with it — or die with it.
A third lesson is this: the universe doesn't care about motives.
If your gun has an accidental discharge while pointed an unsafe direction, the bullet will kill just as dead as if you had been aiming the shot. I didn't mean to may persuade others that you are less likely to repeat a behavior, but it won't bring a corpse back to life.
These are hard lessons, but necessary ones. Stated, in print, they may seem trivial or obvious. But ethical maturity consists, in significant part, of knowing these things — not merely at the level of intellect but at the level of emotion, experience and reflex. And nothing teaches these things like repeated confrontation with life-or-death choices in grave knowledge of the consequences of failure.

Cut from this
Ethics from the Barrel of a Gun

 

[mstewar1]

I'm not intending to rag on you or beat you up, you just raised some interesting points that I wanted to comment on. Sorry for the length of the post...

I hate to disagree with both parties but the presence of guns or the absence of guns will not impact the amount or violent nature of crimes. It is like saying ice cream causes crime. If you look at ice cream sales you will notice that when ice cream sales are highest so is crime. The two have nothing to do with each other but the data and trends are there.

What is that saying, "lies, dang (edit) lies, and statistics."?
You make a good point here. There's a tendency, and not just in the U.S., to make or draw absurd, too simplistic correlations between things and events. I'm not a "media" basher but the whole notion of "infotainment" that passes for "news" on the telly sure leaves me flat.

America as a WHOLE is now on the shortest fuse I have ever seen. Ten years ago who ever heard of road rage? Ten years ago were you more or less likely to tell someone off because they were rude to you? Fundamentally I don't know what happened and I don't know what caused the shift but people no longer are courteous, kind, or respectful.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Ever seen the movie L.A. Story? It's at least ten years old. In it they clown on the rise of road rage incidents in L.A. at the time wherein guns were involved. There's a scene with folks just blastin' away, including some old granny. Too funny.

Anyhow, my larger point is that while the sense of immediacy or intensity that one may feel in relation to what is occurring can make events feel uniquely onerous or ominous, I'm not so convinced that the length of our collective fuses have really shortened so much. Rather I think our attention spans have contracted such that we're experiencing so much less of life that the things we do tend to focus on are coming at us with such speed and repetition that it can really seem like a fast, wicked, overwhelming torrent, unlike anything (again, our short attention spans are the key) we've ever seen or experienced before.

Generations find themselves greeted by seemingly new, aberrant behaviour with each subtle shift in the evolution of human culture (ha! that's a good one "human culture evolving..."). Things change, things speed up, a generation gets a little older and a new one takes their place as the "young ones" and suddenly there's a, perhaps slight, misunderstanding or unshared perspective between the two. To the older generation it just feels like the new generation is totally out of control, the new generation has just lost all sense of perspective and ability to comport themselves with any degree of civility.

Before I'm pegged as a rabid relativist, I do agree that folks change and not always for the better. But I also like to, choose to, work to see the good around me. Work to balance out the good and bad, to see the stuff that's going right, and we can be pleasantly surprised -- and no, I'm not talking about putting on rose colored shades.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Will removing guns solve the problem? No, if someone is willing to get out of their car and shoot someone because someone didn't use their blinker than you take the gun out of the equation and that person is just as likely to get out of their car and do something. Yes the amount of shooting deaths may go down but the amount of violent crimes will remain the same.

Will giving everyone a gun to defend themselves solve the problem? No, because again the root problem is people are more than willing to escalate the issue for the most suspect of reasons.

Once again, I'd think back to when it was ok to walk around with a gun belt on. It must have really seemed out of control to some folks. I mean, if someone spit on your boots in a bar, if you were fast enough, you could pull your piece and just blast 'em. Yeah, you might've ended up swingin' from a rope for the rash response, but to the point of the comment, we've got a stupid human mistake and an overblown response.

And I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone else. I have given people the finger, I have gotten in people's faces, and I have thrown punches. No one counts to ten anymore in America they just act and that is the problem.

So both sides can pick up or lay down their guns what you should be concentrating on is the real issue... why the f can't you idiots be nice to each other

I hear you, loud and clear. I'm so fortunate not to have been on the receiving end of a serious beat down or worse for giving folks the finger while driving. I'll readily admit to having a seriously short fuse when behind the wheel of the car. Nothing, no excuse, can explain it. I just really have to work at it to give the other guy a break. When I'm on my bike, I'm actually a bit more chill, I suppose because I'm that much more exposed and vulnerable. It's a lot of work, being civil. And I'll be the first to admit to needing a daily reminder...

As for the topic on guns. I suppose it's a good thing that concealed carry is virtually impossible where I live. I don't mean to suggest that I'd be some kind of gun waving nut job if I could, but it frightens me to think of how bad it might get if more people could more easily get the right to carry a firearm.

I've studied a martial form for the past 14 years. One of the biggest benefits that I've realized as result -- despite my comment above, seemingly quite to the contrary -- is a better degree of control of my, very bad, temper. I was a very angry young man. Got it from my pops. Anyhow, when I think about anger and altercations, even without a gun, I'm now one of those folks who can get in trouble with the law simply for using my body as a "weapon." The law frames the existence of a person who has some sort of training differently. There's a greater degree of responsibility to act with a degree of restraint, to respond to a threat or situation appropriately. Laugh if you will, I certainly do. If you knew me personally, you'd share a big laugh with me regarding this notion. Not that I take such responsibilty lightly, it's just that I take myself quite lightly.

But the larger point I'd like to close with is perspective. My training, my teachers, have taught me to work to slow down and engage my brain. And to work to stay engaged. It makes moving through the daily life a bit more challenging but what's the alternative, mindless meandering?

Wishing you all well -- armed or otherwise.

Sorry for the blathering post...

 

[wrightme43]

I just want to tell the story I told earlier with a different outcome.
Say all 5 of those girls had the CCDW, and were all carrying that night. Say the two asshats came in and shot into the celing. At that point 5 girls draw down on them and fire. They have a good reason. Fear for thier lives. The police come, the ambulance comes, the statements are taken, two goblins die, and that resteraunt is crossed off the list of places to rob. It is in the news, in the paper, and criminals just drive right on by.

Or we have what we have today. No suspects, no arrests, and a place that is still a target.

 

[wrightme43]

Even when calling the police and being passive you have only farmed violence out to the state. It still must be carried out to have rule of law.

I choose the be the absolutely most dangerous victim possible.

The Smallest Minority

The Smallest Minority

The Smallest Minority


Remove all firearms from the planet with a magic wand, and violence will still exist. It will be still be carried out on the weak by the strong. It will never cease. Humans are dangerous predators and we prey on our own. I and many others make a decision to protect and defend others and ourselves.

 

[wrightme43]

and just one example to show what happens when you turn your rights over to the state.

War veteran Sidney Bannister, 83, tackles gunman at bookies as punters watch - mirror.co.uk

If you dont get it, its probley to late.

 

[necrotimus]

Just because I found it amusing...

My google ad that came up when viewing this thread was bulletproof vests from $379

 

[DecepticonDon]

I agree with your sentiments, and envy your sweet arsenal there, but just a thought. Is it wise to show that you own a suppressed firearm on the internet?
Also, is that one of the new m1's, or an ar15?

Suppressed(and Full auto) firearms are legal, if thats what you mean. Just have to fill out a little paperwork, less than a car loan
AR-15, Bushmaster...tasty!

 

[DecepticonDon]

As for the topic on guns. I suppose it's a good thing that concealed carry is virtually impossible where I live. I don't mean to suggest that I'd be some kind of gun waving nut job if I could, but it frightens me to think of how bad it might get if more people could more easily get the right to carry a firearm.

...

There is a vaguery in your reasoning.
what do you mean "virtually Impossible" to be?
metal detectors everywhere, weapon sniffing K-9s??
Oh, you mean it is very hard to Concealed carry legally!!!!
Last time I checked, criminals did not follow neither the spirit nor letter of the law.
The summation of which being,
-Criminals can be/are carrying a concealed weapon(ignoring the law)
-Law Abiding citizens WILL NOT be carrying a weapon.(respecting the law)
Who is at a marked disadvantange?
One more law or a hundred more matter nothing to the criminal mind.
Restrictive gun laws only restsrict those that are willing to follow them:AKA-Mr and Mrs Law Abider.

Do you think that there is a valid reason for Legal Concealed Carry in church?
type Jeanne Assaminto your favorite Search engine and see what you come up with.