Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[bigborer]

Thanks guys!

With the cams out, all the valves are closed.
With the trigger wheel at TDC the #1 piston is at TDC. That said you are fine. Its the cam timing in relation to the piston position that determines which cylinder is firing.

You are correct- this is a flat plane engine so #1 and #4 are both up, and #2 and #3 are both down

Does the crank turn pretty easy by hand?
Yes, and in any direction

Edit:
What direction were the cam timing marks pointed when you dropped them in? 180° apart yes? Exhaust pointed forward, intake pointed to the rear.
Yes

There should be ZERO slack from the intake to the exhaust; there should be zero slack from the exhaust to the crank. This is a pull system. The only slack that should exist is from the crank to the intake where the cam tensioner goes.

Read some of my posts in the valve adjustment thread.
I offered a lot of detail to help other members on this same topic.
I'll read that as well

Plus 1 ^^.

Make sure there is NO SLACK between the crank and EXHAUST CAM, NO SLACK between the CAMS.

So start with the crank on TDC, run the chain to the exhaust cam (it's taught and marks line up).
Then to the intake cam, nice and taught-mark lined up with the head.

Then take up ALL the slack with the tensioner..

Should I tighten the exhaust cam before passing the chain to the intake cam?

So the issue was too much slack in the chain, or what?

 

[FinalImpact]

It doesn't really matter. Just leave the CCT out (back yours out) and you can do either. If it seem easier to do the exhaust, start there. In short you roll the gear in spinning it such that when seated, the marks line up.

Here you can cheat a little and rotate the crank backwards to aid engagement of chain in the correct place. We are talking just a couple of chain links. Not a 90°.
It should only take a couple of tries.

Once the exhaust is done you can use the same method on the intake BUT YOU MUST put a wrench on the exhaust cam bolt and back it up when turning the crank!!!
Just no quick moves and the chain stays put.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Thanks guys!


Should I tighten the exhaust cam before passing the chain to the intake cam?

So the issue was too much slack in the chain, or what?

Once the crank is at TDC, it's really not going anywhere.

IME, have the cams loose (unless their REALLY CLOSE to their marks), then gently set the exhaust cam in the head lining up the cam mark with the head, chain taught. Snug down.

Then continue back to the intake, same thing, if the marks aren't close, loosen up the cam so you can rotate it W/O interference (and the chai n is taught between the cams. Snug down and mark sure the cams / crank haven't moved and everything is lined up.

Then put in the tensioner, double check your work, nothings moved. You can tighten the cams down fully and re-check.


*I suspect you had a cam off and it met a piston when you had interference.

 

[bigborer]

I've redone everything for the 20th time now. There's around six hours fiddling with this timing crap.

I'm 100% that every single time I did this the crank and cams all were at the right markings.

Now, I've made extra sure that from crank to exhaust cam and exhaust cam to intake there were the absolute minimum chain links possible.

And still... it gets stuck at around 620 degrees. Only thing I can think about is that one or more valves magically got bent when installing them (with the perfectly matching valve press).

Forgot to mention- already took out the plugs the first time this issue occurred, just so I'd be sure this is not from the compression.

I really don't know what to do... I'm strong enough to snap (with moderate effort) the ratchet of a supermarket quality 1/2" socket wrench with no cheater bar, so the last and desperate attempt will be to force it past that point and then open to see what is bent or broke inside...

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

.

Only thing I can think about is that one or more valves magically got bent when installing them (with the perfectly matching valve press).
bar, so the last and desperate attempt will be to force it past that point and then open to see what is bent or broke inside...

DON'T FORCE ANYTHING. You probably just bent a valve forcing it

Check valve clearances at the spot it locks up. If a valve is bent, you'll have a MUCH LARGER valve clearance as it ISN'T SEATING FULLY..

A leak down test ( if you have the tool) will also indicate, with major leakage, any bent valve.

 

[bigborer]

The only larger clearance is on the intake for #4, both being 0.26-0.27mm (ref values are 0.13-0.20).

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

And if you pull the cams, the crank spins over just fine, no interference??

 

[bigborer]

Yes, it spins with 2 finger on the wrench

ps: the chain isn't getting jammed against the side rails of the guides either

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

And with cams / crank lined up, chain taught between from the "front run" and then to the exhaust cam taught (Ape tensioner now installed), it's interfering, correct?

Do you know for certain the correct cams (they ARE different) are located in the correct spot?

**Page 5-70 in the Yamaha shop manual shows the difference between the cams..

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Might have misunderstood your pictures, but pic's help:
[/B]
From the S1 shop manual, notice the bolts that hold the cam gears on to the cam, WAY DIFFERENT LOCATION than yours...

Notice the timing marks as well

Cams are mixed or the marks are 180 out.

Again, check the SHOP manual to make sure the cam's didn't get mixed up



(Admin, pic expires in 7 days).

 

[bigborer]

Yes, the last time I redid the installation of the cams I did the following (in the listed order)

-line up the crank to the marking
-fit and line up the exhaust cam
-make sure the chain is the tightest possible
-tighten down the exhaust cam
-fit and line up the intake cam
-make sure the chain is the tightest possible
-keep the chain pressed over the exhaust cam to prevent any skipping, and at the same time tighten the intake cam
-recheck that everything is at the correct markings and the chain is still where I left it
-finger tighten the tensioner untill only a fraction of a millimeter slack was left
-start rotating the crank clock wise
-go 360 degrees- it rotated normally
-rotate some more, get stuck as shown in the picture

I did think about mixing up the cams. But when I first opened up the engine, the cams had those white paint markings made by the PO- on the letters I and E, so I'm 100% sure that the cams are in the exact position they were when I ran this bike for thousands of kms... And same position where the engine spined freely by wrench before taking it apart

PS: got another idea- what if I had screw in that crank position wheel in the wrong position? So I took it off and that's not it either, there's a small slot behind it so that you could only mount it in one position...

 

[bigborer]

Might have misunderstood your pictures, but pic's help:
[/B]
From the S1 shop manual, notice the bolts that hold the cam gears on to the cam, WAY DIFFERENT LOCATION than yours...

I started on the exact same position, both the bolts and timing marks are in the same location, please see the upper pic from the collage in post #264

 

[bigborer]

Got another idea- would it be possible that one of the buckets seated crookedly?

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Got another idea- would it be possible that one of the buckets seated crookedly?

If you did a valve check and everythings real close, probably not. Certainly can't hurt to check.

From the S1 manual re the cams:



(Admin, pic will expire in 5 days)

 

[bigborer]

So... no luck with the buckets... all of them are perfectly round and straight.

Even tried to install the old chain... same thing, getting stuck in that point.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I gather you examined the cams with the picture above? That the exhaust is indeed the exhaust cam?

I'd pull the cams completely and simply rotate the crankshaft (many times) to make sure the issue ISN'T THERE.

If it rotates many times without issue, I suspect your pulling the head to check valves, somethings definitly amiss...


Besides the initial binding, using force afterwards probably did more damage, which will be more readily seen with the head off

 

[trepetti]

So... no luck with the buckets... all of them are perfectly round and straight.

Even tried to install the old chain... same thing, getting stuck in that point.

DON'T DO THIS!!!!

I am tossing this out for discussion. I would try to split the problem in half, What would be the harm in rotating the crank 90 degrees ATDC, putting all pistons in mid-stroke, then individually rotating the intake and exhaust cam? If there is anything binding, you would have identified where to dig in. Might not amount to much, but might save you from pulling the head prematurely.

Comments?

 

[bigborer]

That the exhaust is indeed the exhaust cam?

The cams don't look like in your picture (in picture the intake one is missing that middle ring, while both of mine have that ring), but I can say with 200% certainty that they are in the same position they were when the engine ran and also rotated freely by wrench.

I've rotated the crank with the cams off many many times, and it rotates normally. Also, once the timing chain is released, the crank will freely rotate past the biding point.



Observing the cams at the binding point shows that at the intake cam the lobes are just about to push in the #2 valves, while on the exhaust the lobes are about to push in the #3 valves.

After I was sure the cylinders were down and I managed to push in the exhaust valves for #3 about half way with my fingers (past where any alleged initial binding point would be) and they felt like putting the same resistance as the ones from the other cylinders.

So this only leaves the intake valves for #2. Couldn't push those in by finger (they use 2 springs for the same valve), but those valves get pushed in when screwing in the intake cam at the timing mark, so that means there is nothing holding those stuck closed either.

Now, this only leaves one question- if it's neither this or that, what the hell is it? I'm starting to believe in the paranormal...


Got another idea- how about I just started with everything offset by 180 degrees (the same positions it'd end up if I started at the timing marks and just rotated 180 degrees), and then checked out if it binds in the same spot. I want to make sure absolutely every single permutation possible was tried before taking the head out. I'll even try using the OEM tensioner.
The head out = new gasket which means another $150 in parts + shipping + taxes and another 4-6 weeks waiting time + another hassle with the customs agency.

 

[bigborer]

DON'T DO THIS!!!!

I am tossing this out for discussion. I would try to split the problem in half, What would be the harm in rotating the crank 90 degrees ATDC, putting all pistons in mid-stroke, then individually rotating the intake and exhaust cam? If there is anything binding, you would have identified where to dig in. Might not amount to much, but might save you from pulling the head prematurely.

Comments?

This is probably the next move after I try starting with everything offset...

But still, if it turns out it's not the valves resisting the push in- what else could it be?

 

[FinalImpact]

So at TDC, marks 180° apart on cams, take a picture of the cam LOBE positioning on cylinder #1. IIRC they are angled apart in a V shape. Those valves should be closed!!!!
Period. Lobes not depressing the valves!

Let us know what you see! I may have pictures from the past.