The Pace 2.0

[Lefty]

Last night I just finished reading "The Pace 2.0" by Nick Ienatsch in the latest issue of Cycle World and as I am a big believer in the original Pace 1.0 it was very informative reading the updated 2.0.

In the last week up here in NorCal on the local riders forum we've have yet another rider fatality yesterday evening on a group ride on one of my favorite local roads and a rider losing a leg due to a collision with a guard rail on another road which gave me pause to reflect on my riding habits and reflecting back to the tenets of "The Pace" philosophy.

I got shivers thinking about the SoCal Hoonapalooza ride and Wavex's accident and all things considered, how lucky David was with the extent of his injuries. I'm in no way discounting ther seriousness of his injuries but I thank God that he will recover completely and that he is still with us.

So basically all I am saying is everyone please ride within your skill limits and not push it on the street. I don't want to see anymore posts about crashes or even worse the loss of a life. I value eveyone on the forum too much.

Sermon over, please continue with your lives and have a happy 4th of July. :thumbup:

 

[oaks]

:thumbup: Here's a link to the original The Pace. Good stuff.

The Pace - Nick Ienatsch - Motorcyclist magazine

 

[Verharen]

:thumbup: Here's a link to the original The Pace. Good stuff.

Thanks for posting the link!

Last night I just finished reading "The Pace 2.0" by Nick Ienatsch in the latest issue of Cycle World and as I am a big believer in the original Pace 1.0 it was very informative reading the updated 2.0.

The Pace 1.0 was one of the first articles I ever read in a motorcycle magazine. At the time I thought every "good rider" agreed and rode that way. Then I found that "good rider" is defined in different ways by different people. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, but at what point is it appropriate to speak up?

I like it when you guys get all parental and preachy. I know it is because you care. And that way I don't have to sound like nagging wife

Hoonapalooza 2013 was a learning experience in so many ways. I hope that further discussion helps to prevent any similar incidents. For example, I keep wondering was there something more that could have been said at our kick off meeting? How can we get better at preventing that desire we have for speed, especially on public roads where there are too many uncontrolled factors?

This forum is so great about safety issues like ATGATT* - which I had to look up initially. How can we make riding within (or at least close to) the speed limit the coolest thing ever? :rockon:

*ATGATT - All The Gear, All The Time (for any newbies out there).

 

[Goop]

I scanned the article because I thought it's very good and applies to our style of riding in particular. I'm including a link the the scanned PDF here.

The PDF is a little large, 20 MB because it looks better and running the size reducing function in Acrobat made it look grainy.

The Pace 2.0 PDF

 

[Goop]

Also, Nick's book is an excellent read. I've read it more than once and still get it out and read it every so often.

Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track

 

[Water Bear]

You can't let other people harsh your chill.

I'm interested in doing one thing: Riding at my own pace. And I tell you what, my pace usually isn't that fast, either. Do I get passed by people? All the time. I just don't care.

edit: Also I read the pace 2.0 in the latest CW and yes, it was an informative read. The part on trail braking especially.

 

[Solarservant]

I bought Nick's book: Sport Riding Techniques when I first started riding. One of the best investments I have made along with my riding gear (ATTGAT!). Possibly the best investment. Should be required reading for all new motorcyclists. Having said that, I think I will dust it off and give it another run-through.

Be safe out there this weekend folks!

 

[Verharen]

The part of the 2.0 article that really hit home for me was when he wrote: "All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds. Can an article teach judgement and discipline? No, hospitals teach that." Sad, but true.

I'll admit that I have felt a little embarrassed to go slow into blind corners, but my desire to avoid surprises around blind corners is typically stronger than impressing anyone. Why would I feel embarrassed to go a speed that I know is right for me? Do you guys ever feel reluctant to go slowly?

Does the leader in a group ride have a responsibility to go at a pace that most everyone can keep up with? That's why I initially suggested Goop to lead us for Hoonapalooza, I really like the pace he sets. He keeps us together. But then our pre-ride discussion led me to believe maybe it was regular practice to have "the fast guys" go first. And it certainly made sense so that everyone could ride their own ride. But it created an environment where several people mentioned having to remind themselves to slow down. And I just hid in the back!

I liked that Motojoe made it really clear the other day that he wouldn't be splitting lanes, nor going fast with his passenger on an unfamiliar bike. :thumbup: But what about rides when we are all on our favorite steeds about to hit our favorite roads? I don't ever want my friends getting hurt. How long will the effects of the hospital lesson last? And can everyone on the forum learn it through the courageous humility of others who did it first hand?

 

[Erci]

The part of the 2.0 article that really hit home for me was when he wrote: "All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds. Can an article teach judgement and discipline? No, hospitals teach that." Sad, but true.

I'll admit that I have felt a little embarrassed to go slow into blind corners, but my desire to avoid surprises around blind corners is typically stronger than impressing anyone. Why would I feel embarrassed to go a speed that I know is right for me? Do you guys ever feel reluctant to go slowly?

Does the leader in a group ride have a responsibility to go at a pace that most everyone can keep up with? That's why I initially suggested Goop to lead us for Hoonapalooza, I really like the pace he sets. He keeps us together. But then our pre-ride discussion led me to believe maybe it was regular practice to have "the fast guys" go first. And it certainly made sense so that everyone could ride their own ride. But it created an environment where several people mentioned having to remind themselves to slow down. And I just hid in the back!

I liked that Motojoe made it really clear the other day that he wouldn't be splitting lanes, nor going fast with his passenger on an unfamiliar bike. :thumbup: But what about rides when we are all on our favorite steeds about to hit our favorite roads? I don't ever want my friends getting hurt. How long will the effects of the hospital lesson last? And can everyone on the forum learn it through the courageous humility of others who did it first hand?

These are all excellent points and questions. I say if you continue to be cautious going into blind curves, you can look forward to a long life of safe and enjoyable riding!

If you ever ride while thinking you have something to prove to anyone, you're doing it wrong. It's definitely a very good idea to figure out rules and general places in line, when it comes to group riding, but you should never ever feel pressured to go faster than your comfort zone.

I've been on few rides where I felt the pace was far above "sane". I went at the speed which was comfortable for me (that is.. I refuse to take a blind corner at the speed which I consider too be too fast, should I need to make a quick stop when I'm half way through it). Even though I take it down a notch, it worries me to be part of a group which throws caution to the wind. I don't want to see any of my friends get hurt.

The place to ride fast is the track, not the street.

These are just my random thoughts and ramblings. I don't mean for any of the above to be read like advice or a lecture.

MSF does teach beginners to "consider the consequences before risk can be managed". If we could all remember to consider what can happen before we head out for a ride, perhaps sanity would stay with us.

 

[Goop]

I'll admit that I have felt a little embarrassed to go slow into blind corners, but my desire to avoid surprises around blind corners is typically stronger than impressing anyone. Why would I feel embarrassed to go a speed that I know is right for me? Do you guys ever feel reluctant to go slowly?

I do sometimes. Especially when I see others are able to take certain corners so much quicker. "Man, why can't I do it like that?" Because I'll be above my comfort zone and likely to hesitate in the corner when it would be a huge mistake to do so.

Does the leader in a group ride have a responsibility to go at a pace that most everyone can keep up with? That's why I initially suggested Goop to lead us for Hoonapalooza, I really like the pace he sets. He keeps us together. But then our pre-ride discussion led me to believe maybe it was regular practice to have "the fast guys" go first. And it certainly made sense so that everyone could ride their own ride. But it created an environment where several people mentioned having to remind themselves to slow down. And I just hid in the back!

These are my observations.

One pace vs. letting faster riders go first: It depends. To me there has never been a hard set of rules. It depends on the group and the particular ride. The rules were set during the pre-ride chats.

All of the larger group rides (say 8+ riders) I've participated in tend to break up into two parts: Riders who want to go at a faster pace* and those who want to take an easier pace. The premise of this is that everyone rides at the level they are comfortable at. We stop at various intervals to make sure everyone is OK and to get the group bunched back up for the next stretch of riding (having a sweeper makes this easier). The goal: we all get to the same destination safely, with no matter of the varying pace of individual riders. Myself, I would feel some pressure if I had riders behind me wishing to go at a faster pace than what I'm capable of leading at, so that's why I wasn't enthusiastically stepping up to the plate for leading Hoonapalooza.

Smaller groups we tend to stick together and ride at a more uniform pace. It just seems to work out this way. I guess my pace is good for that situation I was surprised when you told me you liked my pace.

* Just to clarify, I'm not saying that a "faster pace" equates to "insane". A faster pace is relative to many things. I've ridden with some very experienced riders who are fast-paced, sane and in control. I've ridden with some who tried to be fast-paced and not in control and they crashed on more than one ride I've been with them on.

 

[Jblk9695]

I do sometimes. Especially when I see others are able to take certain corners so much quicker. "Man, why can't I do it like that?" Because I'll be above my comfort zone and likely to hesitate in the corner when it would be a huge mistake to do so.



These are my observations.

One pace vs. letting faster riders go first: It depends. To me there has never been a hard set of rules. It depends on the group and the particular ride. The rules were set during the pre-ride chats.

All of the larger group rides (say 8+ riders) I've participated in tend to break up into two parts: Riders who want to go at a faster pace* and those who want to take an easier pace. The premise of this is that everyone rides at the level they are comfortable at. We stop at various intervals to make sure everyone is OK and to get the group bunched back up for the next stretch of riding (having a sweeper makes this easier). The goal: we all get to the same destination safely, with no matter of the varying pace of individual riders. Myself, I would feel some pressure if I had riders behind me wishing to go at a faster pace than what I'm capable of leading at, so that's why I wasn't enthusiastically stepping up to the plate for leading Hoonapalooza.

Smaller groups we tend to stick together and ride at a more uniform pace. It just seems to work out this way. I guess my pace is good for that situation I was surprised when you told me you liked my pace.

* Just to clarify, I'm not saying that a "faster pace" equates to "insane". A faster pace is relative to many things. I've ridden with some very experienced riders who are fast-paced, sane and in control. I've ridden with some who tried to be fast-paced and not in control and they crashed on more than one ride I've been with them on.

Very well said.
And I thought your pace was just right, fast enough to be fun and slow enough to be safe, it was GooooopTastic:BLAA:

Jerry

 

[Lefty]

These are my observations.

One pace vs. letting faster riders go first: It depends. To me there has never been a hard set of rules. It depends on the group and the particular ride. The rules were set during the pre-ride chats.

All of the larger group rides (say 8+ riders) I've participated in tend to break up into two parts: Riders who want to go at a faster pace* and those who want to take an easier pace. The premise of this is that everyone rides at the level they are comfortable at. We stop at various intervals to make sure everyone is OK and to get the group bunched back up for the next stretch of riding (having a sweeper makes this easier). The goal: we all get to the same destination safely, with no matter of the varying pace of individual riders. Myself, I would feel some pressure if I had riders behind me wishing to go at a faster pace than what I'm capable of leading at, so that's why I wasn't enthusiastically stepping up to the plate for leading Hoonapalooza.

Smaller groups we tend to stick together and ride at a more uniform pace. It just seems to work out this way. I guess my pace is good for that situation I was surprised when you told me you liked my pace.

* Just to clarify, I'm not saying that a "faster pace" equates to "insane". A faster pace is relative to many things. I've ridden with some very experienced riders who are fast-paced, sane and in control. I've ridden with some who tried to be fast-paced and not in control and they crashed on more than one ride I've been with them on.

I agree with Bryan here. Maybe I should clairfy my opening post. During our Hoonapolooza ride I never felt that I was personally riding above my skill/experience/comfort level even though "my pace" may have been faster than some in the group. When riders, especially in a group ride, are honest with themselves about the pace they are comfortable riding they will accordingly place themselves in the group where as not to feel pressured from riders behind or being tempted to unsafely pass those ahead of them who they think may be holding them up.

On our ride I was near but not over the limit of my comfort zone and although I could have picked up my speed it would have put me at a risk factor which I didn't want to cross.

Case in point, upon reaching Wavex immediatley after his crash in which I was technically in a blind left hand corner as viewed on my helmet video, I was not only able to react quickly and safely ride between his bike laying in the middle of the road and him sitting on the guard rail a few feet away but I was able to stop in a controlled manner in a very short distance.

I have the utmost respect for those riders who will only ride "their ride" and not try and keep up with riders who's pace would put them out of their safety zone. Conversely, I've been on rides where I've been behind riders riding below the speed limit and not being able to be in control of their bikes through corners often times drifting over the DY or even worse going across the oncoming lane.

Bottom line is everyone's "Pace" may vary but keep a little in reserve to be able to avoid the unforseen and unexpected. :thumbup:

 

[Hobbesca]

Thanks for posting this, I haven't seen this before. Really good information.

 

[lonesoldier84]

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/

"Get on a racetrack."

Yup.

Lol once you find your REAL pace you're not going to want to find it on the street. You learn what speed really is as you work on your riding and chase all the guys that are properly quick.

There's no attitudes or egos, only guys trying to figure out why they're slower than they could be. Everyone co-operates, and everyone is working at the same thing. And everyone is actually making genuine progress, rather than scaring themselves on the street then backing way off and learning very little then coming out thinking "I wish I was faster".

When you come back out to the street, you never look at riding the same way again. Yeah some will want to have fun and tool around, but even then whoever you are you're going to ride the conditions.

I didn't know Wavex crashed and that really sucks and I'm really happy his injuries were minor (get well soon man!). But going through his posts there it seems like he may have been going a bit too quick for the conditions. Traction and surface changes are extremely unpredictable even with great sightlines. I have no doubt he had ample reserves still in the bag when he lost the front end, so honestly it just sucks but it does happen.

You do the best you can to ride safely while still enjoying yourself. Everyone's going to find their own balance so there's no sense preaching. But it is true that for every unit of speed you take off the scale, you gain 10 units of safety. But if you take enough units of speed off, you end up just touring.....and I'm pretty sure a lot of guys on sportier machines bought them for a reason. So just learn how to use the things properly at a racetrack by taking some performance riding schools or just getting in tracktime (WAY cheaper than missing time from work and having to buy prosthetic limbs), then scale back a whole bunch of your "pace" for the street and soak up the stellar highways we have around the world.

:thumbup:

 

[mannydiller]

http://tinyurl.com/sportridingtechniques

For anyone who has enjoyed the book, but maybe would also like an electronic PDF version... looks great on my iPad.

...

 

[Verharen]

Just got my August issue of Sport Rider and there is an interesting letter from Aaron Loyd of Fort Collins, CO. He begins by referring to "The Pace" and describes a drill he often practices in the twisties:

...only allow myself the track closest to the shoulder when riding. I use the shoulder track because so many drivers today will go around blind left-hand corners cheating into the oncoming lane. Thus, when riding around right-hand corners, the track closest to the center will sometimes have an oncoming car.... Regardless of which track the rider chooses, staying in that track and only using a roughly three foot wide lane teaches the rider how to put the bike where they want it.​

He goes on to explain how this drill also helps riders learn to delay their turn-in a split second and avoid "early turn in syndrome."

Anyway, I thought it was worthy of sharing.

 

[Erci]

Just got my August issue of Sport Rider and there is an interesting letter from Aaron Loyd of Fort Collins, CO. He begins by referring to "The Pace" and describes a drill he often practices in the twisties:

...only allow myself the track closest to the shoulder when riding. I use the shoulder track because so many drivers today will go around blind left-hand corners cheating into the oncoming lane. Thus, when riding around right-hand corners, the track closest to the center will sometimes have an oncoming car.... Regardless of which track the rider chooses, staying in that track and only using a roughly three foot wide lane teaches the rider how to put the bike where they want it.​

He goes on to explain how this drill also helps riders learn to delay their turn-in a split second and avoid "early turn in syndrome."

Anyway, I thought it was worthy of sharing.

Hmm.. not sure I like this one. He is intentionally making blind right handers even MORE blind.. completely blind. Sure it's highly unlikely that someone will be that far over in his lane, but there could still be gravel, parked truck, deer.. you name it. I want to spot all of those things (including the wayward oncoming traffic) as soon as possible, so that I'll have maximum time and space to handle the situation.

 

[Goop]

Hmm.. not sure I like this one. He is intentionally making blind right handers even MORE blind.. completely blind. Sure it's highly unlikely that someone will be that far over in his lane, but there could still be gravel, parked truck, deer.. you name it. I want to spot all of those things (including the wayward oncoming traffic) as soon as possible, so that I'll have maximum time and space to handle the situation.

I agree with you. I like to see as much as I can when coming up on a blind corner.

 

[Wavex]

Awesome thread thank you John for initiating and thanks Brian for the PDF...