Trouble starting

[SamuraiMark]

My 2006 FZ6 (FZS6V) has learned a new trick:

Bought it used in 2011 with ~9K kms on it. I've put ~30K kms on it since. Regular maintenance by myself and local shops. New plugs in Q2 2012, new battery in Q2 of 2014. Until recently, no issues with the bike.

Two Wednesdays ago, leaving work, the bike would not start. It had started just fine that morning and gave no indication of any problems. When I tried to start the bike that afternoon, it would not fire up. Everything sounded normal (normal ignition / starter sounds) to me. There is plenty of juice in the battery and it seemed to be cranking fine. After about 5 - 10 minutes of random leaning on the ignition, it finally fired up. I drove home and there were no other indications of problems.

Between two Wednesdays ago and last Friday it ran fine. It got me to work every day and last Thursday I was out for a full day of riding with numerous stops/starts. No issues.

Last Friday it pulled the same stunt. It was fine going to work. At the end of the day it would not start. This time I was stranded for a good 45 minutes or more. Again, it eventually did start but I almost killed the battery ... drained it to the point of getting error codes on the display. I was about to abandon it and cab home but gave it "one last chance" and it finally fire up.

In both cases, when it did start, it was as if nothing had happened. It just started normally, ran normally, and away I went.

I don't think this is related, but the idle was low. Around 1K rpm. I adjusted the idle back up to around 1300.

Not having much of a clue I am imagining:

- issues with the plugs and/or ignition wires? Do they need replacing? Are the plugs gummed up from some other problem?

- issues with fueling?

Between the first and second failures, it was just in the shop for new tires, and I had the oil & filter changed at the same time. Mentioned the problem to the mechanic but with nothing specific to look at I took it home with plans to bring it back if it happened again. I'd like to narrow down possible causes before taking it back to the shop.

I'm reviewing my Haynes & service manuals, but any pro-tips are greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Mark,

The idle, set at 1,000, is a bit too low. The battery is pretty much discharging at idle. The more city(slow traffic) you do, the worse it will be (battery wise)

Bump it up to 1300 and try that.

Right now the battery is probably NOT fully charged. If you have an automatic tender(1.25 amp), put it on till it goes green.

You may want to get a volt meter and check the charging voltage at 1,300 and up to 5,000 (give it about 5 seconds at 5k to let the charge level out). It should be around 14 volts.

Do you have any after market electrical accessories on the bike, ie, heated grips, aux lighting, etc?

Also, do you know how old the battery is? It would be worth your time , (after its fully charged) to pull it and get it load tested. Most auto parts stores, Walmart, etc check it for free.

Also check the tightness of the battery cable to battery bolts. They tend to loosen up if not fully tight and cause issues.

I run my idle at about 1050, with the dual headlight mod, BUT I do very little city, slow traffic so the bike is almost always charging, not at idle. Idleing, its just breaking even voltage wise.

I get 3-4 years out of a battery. Others have gotten more, some less. Your at 4 years or so. I'm leaning towards the battery being toast, possible internally shorting (just old age, wear and tear)

Plugs, ignition wires, will cause constant crappy running issues, they generally won't come and go as is your issue.

Cover the basic's first..

Please post back with what you find.

 

[SamuraiMark]

Mark,

The idle, set at 1,000, is a bit too low. The battery is pretty much discharging at idle. The more city(slow traffic) you do, the worse it will be (battery wise)

Bump it up to 1300 and try that.

Done! Once I got home Thursday I bumped the idle up to ~1300.

Right now the battery is probably NOT fully charged. If you have an automatic tender(1.25 amp), put it on till it goes green.

I do have a battery tender. I'll put the battery on it and let it get fully charged. That said, it certainly seemed to have plenty of power. It wasn't until I'd been trying to start the bike for ~45 minutes that it showed obvious signs of running out of power (audible change in starter noise, console LCD dimming, etc.)

You may want to get a volt meter and check the charging voltage at 1,300 and up to 5,000 (give it about 5 seconds at 5k to let the charge level out). It should be around 14 volts.

I have a voltmeter. I'll give this a shot as well.

Do you have any after market electrical accessories on the bike, ie, heated grips, aux lighting, etc?

Nein. No after-market electricals.

Also, do you know how old the battery is? It would be worth your time , (after its fully charged) to pull it and get it load tested. Most auto parts stores, Walmart, etc check it for free.

The battery is 2 years old (March 2013).

Also check the tightness of the battery cable to battery bolts. They tend to loosen up if not fully tight and cause issues.

I'll check this today post any discrepancies.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[VEGASRIDER]

Could it be the famous faulty/worn out "Kill Switch" that so many bikes have had including mine.

Try wiggling the switch assembly around with your fingers next time the bike is running in idle and see if it cuts out.

 

[Motogiro]

From what you've described it doesn't seem to be a battery or kill switch problem.

If it were the battery or kill switch there would be no starter operation so if the starter cranked good when you had this failure the battery/killswitch is probably good. A starter can be turned at low voltage and high current but the computer would throw an error code as it did when you finally ran the battery down.

If it were a coil failure it would still probably fire the other 2 cylinders because there are 2 coils and chances are rare that both coils will fail at the same time. Complete spark failure would fail at the ECU which gets it's Q from the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) if it were the CPS you should get an error code #12.

My first thought is a fuel problem. Lift the tank and check for hose kinks and fuel pump connectors and tank vent lines. The fuel pump may have a clogged filter or the pump may be failing.

 

[SamuraiMark]

Done! Once I got home Thursday I bumped the idle up to ~1300.

I have a voltmeter. I'll give this a shot as well.

I checked the idle again, and adjusted it up a hair. It seems to have settled between 1320 and 1380. I assume minor variation like that is expected.

I monitored the charge on the battery with the motor running. It started out 13.97V and slowly increased from there. I stopped watching it at 14.01V. That was at idle.

- Mark

 

[SamuraiMark]

From what you've described it doesn't seem to be a battery or kill switch problem.

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My first thought is a fuel problem. Lift the tank and check for hose kinks and fuel pump connectors and tank vent lines. The fuel pump may have a clogged filter or the pump may be failing.

Thanks for the feedback. The starter is definitely working well. Or "normal" based on my experience with the bike the past 3.5 years. I have a ****ty cell phone video of the idle readout and starting it up that I can upload.

Is it possible ambient temperature and humidity could be involved? Or at least triggering some other marginal issue? On both days in question the morning was quite cool (10 - 12C) and by ~4-5PM it was hot and humid.

Since the failure last Thursday it has been fine. I've started it up a number of times and you'd never know there was a problem.

I'll check the tank lines. I *do* have what appears to be a flaky fuel gauge connection. Maybe there is more going on there.

(Often when I lift the tank and later turn the ignition on the fuel gauge does this "no data" thing where the gauge LCD bars just blink. Checking the connections, everything is connected but wiggling the wires seems to correct the problem. There's a ****ty electrical tape job around the wires right where the connector meets the tank.)

- Mark

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I'll check the tank lines. I *do* have what appears to be a flaky fuel gauge connection. Maybe there is more going on there.

(Often when I lift the tank and later turn the ignition on the fuel gauge does this "no data" thing where the gauge LCD bars just blink. Checking the connections, everything is connected but wiggling the wires seems to correct the problem. There's a ****ty electrical tape job around the wires right where the connector meets the tank.)

Ok, that's VERY important info...

Its very easy to put too much strain on those wires/connectors when raising the tank. If the pump has a bad connection as well, your not getting fuel, thus the engine dies but all the electrics work. Sounds like its barely connecting and thus the intermediate problem-runs when it gets a connection..

Gently remove BOTH plugs and examine the ends and wires to the connectors.

I would suggest using a stick (if not already) to hold the tank up. Some folks use bungee cords pulling the tank WAY back stressing the tank connectors...

This place, if you need new connectors, may have what you need; Honda - Kawasaki Motorcycle Turn Signal Connectors

 

[SamuraiMark]

Ok, that's VERY important info...

I had a closer look. One of the pins/wires on one of the connectors is wonky. Looks like it was yanked on. Only one owner before me so it was either that owner or the moto shop where I bought the machine.

Pix: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j30g3dnk63pgxmh/AADBlfz7XYOT34J1xqC5sRpea?dl=0

I pulled the crap tape job off. There are little rubber gaskets around each wire where it meets the connector. Weather proofing I assume. On the wonky wire that gasket was split and pulled out of the connector housing. I was able to shove the gasket back in with the pointy end of a probe from my multimeter and then I taped it back up. Reattached the two connectors and the fuel gauge works fine, sans "wire wiggling". I should replace that connector anyway but it should be secure for now. Thanks for the link.

The other three wires seem to be secure and undamaged.

- Mark

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

And agreed, someone yanked it up way too far.

Where the plug goes into the pump, any damage?

I would make sure the pump plug is nice and clean. Even check voltage from the harness while jiggling the wire (you'll have to turn the ignition on and off for the pump to run((prime up)) just to make sure there's no break internally in the pump wires....

A bad connection anywhere in that area would cause issues. Also, I like using dilectric grease on all connectors, bulb bases, etc. It helps keep water / corrosion out. Any connector I pull apart, gets dilectric grease. As small as the connectors are nowadays, it doesn't take much to get a bad connection..

 

[SamuraiMark]

Where the plug goes into the pump, any damage?

There doesn't appear to be any damage. I took a close look at the two connectors (two connectors, one white, one green, branching off a common bundle of wires, each connector with two wires) and the other three wires all look fine. It was just the one that was partially pulled out. The connectors themselves and the attachment points all look Ok.

I would make sure the pump plug is nice and clean. Even check voltage from the harness while jiggling the wire (you'll have to turn the ignition on and off for the pump to run((prime up)) just to make sure there's no break internally in the pump wires....

A bad connection anywhere in that area would cause issues. Also, I like using dilectric grease on all connectors, bulb bases, etc. It helps keep water / corrosion out. Any connector I pull apart, gets dilectric grease. As small as the connectors are nowadays, it doesn't take much to get a bad connection..

Thanks for the tips. I'll do some more testing and get me some dielectric grease.

I started the bike maybe 15 times or so over the weekend. It started with no obvious issues every time. Rode it to work this morning. Here's hoping I don't get stuck again! I think the idle was just a little to high during the ride in. Seemed to be centered mostly around 1380, after my ~20 minute commute to work. But better that than ~1000 I assume.

I'm planning to do a throttle body sync in the next week or two if that matters. I'm going to build one of those home-made manometers this time around, and I'm working on this great little project for future testing: Arduino Throttle Body Syncronization Shield.

I probably need a valve check / adjustment as well, but that is a bit beyond my means.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Sounds like you got it straightened out! :thumbup:

If you measure your voltage while at idle, you can probably lower it some. You just don't really want it dropping below 13 volts.

Depending on the bike, certain conditions, riding manners, the majority of the bikes don't need valve adjustments at the 26,600 mileage mark.

If you have a noisy valve train, yep, you'll more than likely need some adjustments. Mines very quiet and I don't really beat on the bike, the PO did but it is still quiet at 20,000 miles..

Checking is not nearly as hard as changing out shims. Should they need adjustment, you have easily half the job done for the shop to re-shim...

 

[SamuraiMark]

So far, so good. There were 9 days between the first time it wouldn't start and the second time so we'll see how it behaves over the next couple weeks. Might be headed down the East Coast of the YOU-ESS-AYE this August ... don't want to find myself stranded.

I'm just over 30K kms and I don't notice any strange noises so I'll just do the sync and see where I go from there. Not that I would know what out of adjustment valves sound like, unless it is blatantly obvious. Maybe the youtubes can help there.

- Mark

 

[FinalImpact]

There doesn't appear to be any damage. I took a close look at the two connectors (two connectors, one white, one green, branching off a common bundle of wires, each connector with two wires) and the other three wires all look fine. It was just the one that was partially pulled out. The connectors themselves and the attachment points all look Ok.



Thanks for the tips. I'll do some more testing and get me some dielectric grease.

I started the bike maybe 15 times or so over the weekend. It started with no obvious issues every time. Rode it to work this morning. Here's hoping I don't get stuck again! I think the idle was just a little to high during the ride in. Seemed to be centered mostly around 1380, after my ~20 minute commute to work. But better that than ~1000 I assume.

I'm planning to do a throttle body sync in the next week or two if that matters. I'm going to build one of those home-made manometers this time around, and I'm working on this great little project for future testing: Arduino Throttle Body Syncronization Shield.

I probably need a valve check / adjustment as well, but that is a bit beyond my means.

Sounds like there is hope and perhaps just exercising the green connector fixed it?? If it ever acts up again, listen for the pump priming. The white connector would have no impact on this, just the fuel reading and the bike will run without it connected.

Are you a programmer? C# or .net?
At first I didn't think the guy used a pressure compensated transducer, but reading the fine print from Digikey shows he did. That was a cool project! Considering the Arduino units are only $35.00 or so, there are plenty of things to tinker with for those with a little imagination. My thought was an ignition advance module. Take a peak here and the transducers for the trigger and wheel speed are available $4.00. -->>Here Post 9

 

[FinalImpact]

[MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION] you see this?

Arduino Throttle Body Syncronization Shield.

Tag: JJD952 Ignition Advance Project

 

[SamuraiMark]

Sounds like there is hope and perhaps just exercising the green connector fixed it?? If it ever acts up again, listen for the pump priming. The white connector would have no impact on this, just the fuel reading and the bike will run without it connected.

Yes, that's been my experience. First time that happened was after the bike had been in the shop. I was about to ride away but the fuel gauge was blinking. The bike started fine. 5 minutes later the mechanic had "fixed" it. Not sure if the crummy tape job was their doing or not. It has happened once or twice since ... lifting the tank and disturbing the wonky wire. I think my recent hackery should keep it from acting up. The green connector seems fine.

You mention the pump priming ... it *may* be that I have recently noticed *not* hearing the pump priming sound all the time. I'll pay attention to that. I'm not 100% sure as I always have my earplugs in so maybe I'm just not hearing it.

Are you a programmer? C# or .net? At first I didn't think the guy used a pressure compensated transducer, but reading the fine print from Digikey shows he did. That was a cool project! Considering the Arduino units are only $35.00 or so, there are plenty of things to tinker with for those with a little imagination. My thought was an ignition advance module. Take a peak here and the transducers for the trigger and wheel speed are available $4.00. -->>Here Post 9

I wouldn't call myself a "programmer". I do IT systems analysis and some data analytics. I do code, mainly in Python and R, but I am by no means a professional programmer. I'll have to either re-write his Windows app in something Linux friendly or, more likely in my case, just some python scripts to output the data to a console. Maybe a text based version of the GUI he developed. At any rate, I have an arduino sitting here that has been waiting for a project. This seems apropos! Been a while since I soldered anything though ... those capacitors are teeny.

- Mark

 

[Motogiro]

[MENTION=2579]Motogiro[/MENTION] you see this?

Arduino Throttle Body Syncronization Shield.

Tag: JJD952 Ignition Advance Project

That is trick! I need to do mine. Only have 2 Lol! BlahBlah

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That is trick! I need to do mine. Only have 2 Lol! BlahBlah

Get a Harley and only have ONE! No syncing!!

 

[SamuraiMark]

So, my understanding re: the furl priming is that under normal operating conditions the bike will not always prime? Is that correct? Certainly this morning I did not hear the usual high-pitched whine that I associate with priming, but the bike started fine. Does the ECU somehow decide when / if to prime or is this an error and it should always prime? I'm pretty sure my FZ6 has only ever primed "sometimes" (maybe the majority of the time even, but not 100%) since I acquired it in 2011.

- Mark

 

[FinalImpact]

Mine is every time but I don't make a habit of tuning it off and restarting minutes/seconds later. So, it may not prime under short interval testing. IDK!

Here is my best guess on WHEN and Why the pump comes on.
1) If ignition is turned on it primes and times out. There is no "pressure sensor per say" on the fuel rail but, the ECU could test the current load of the pump and make an assessment of "IF" it needs to turn off as the stalled pump (running against pressure regulator) will draw a different amount of current than when the engine is running. IDK which is does. Time or load!?
2) If ECU does NOT detect Crank sensor movement after Key on, it runs its timeline (~ 4 seconds??) and shuts off until it detects rotation from the Crankshaft Position Sensor. With rotation from the CPS, it turns the pump on.

So, Cycling the key in short succession w/out running the engine may leave the pump off. Best guess.