Error 33 breaking my bike abroad- urgent help please

[bigborer]

Would the leak down still be relevant on a cold engine?

Found the camera today, but at 9,5mm it's not very likely it will fit through the M10 hole, but I'll try regardless

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Would the leak down still be relevant on a cold engine?

Found the camera today, but at 9,5mm it's not very likely it will fit through the M10 hole, but I'll try regardless

Absolutely...

The engine MUST be locked up or the air pumped into it by you, WILL SPIN it over.

IF you hear air coming out of the crankcase, it's likely bad rings, scored cylinder, etc. If you hear air coming out of
the throttle bodies, it's a valve not seated/broke/bent/adjusted too tight, etc. Same for the exhaust.

Bubbling (not applicable in your case) from the coolant system, a blown head gasket.

You can lock up the engine simply by putting a wrench on the rotor bolt (again, at TDC, compression stroke of the cylinder being tested).

You've done all the hard part to get to this point. Just with a small air compressor (capable of 100 PSI-6 gallon is plenty), and the tool, I bought a
nice set from OTC for about $60 years ago.

**Your initial issue with the ignition, then running on two dead cylinders, I would NOT think would have hurt the engine.

IMO, The cam chain, CCT, possibly rattling about (just coincidence-timing wise), is what I personally would be focusing on. I'd replace that chain, use the APE
adjuster and get that chain where you KNOW it's not causing the noise BEFORE ANY deeper tear down... I'd also replace the rear guide, even of it looks fine. There's a bunch of pressure on it (from both the chain and tensioner. ANY, deformity(more curvature) will cause issues. I had that on my KLR (but that chain was twice as long)


.

 

[bigborer]

Absolutely...

The engine MUST be locked up or the air pumped into it by you, WILL SPIN it over.

IF you hear air coming out of the crankcase, it's likely bad rings, scored cylinder, etc. If you hear air coming out of
the throttle bodies, it's a valve not seated/broke/bent/adjusted too tight, etc. Same for the exhaust.

Bubbling (not applicable in your case) from the coolant system, a blown head gasket.

You can lock up the engine simply by putting a wrench on the rotor bolt (again, at TDC, compression stroke of the cylinder being tested).

You've done all the hard part to get to this point. Just with a small air compressor (capable of 100 PSI-6 gallon is plenty), and the tool, I bought a
nice set from OTC for about $60 years ago.

**Your initial issue with the ignition, then running on two dead cylinders, I would NOT think would have hurt the engine.

IMO, The cam chain, CCT, possibly rattling about (just coincidence-timing wise), is what I personally would be focusing on. I'd replace that chain, use the APE
adjuster and get that chain where you KNOW it's not causing the noise BEFORE ANY deeper tear down... I'd also replace the rear guide, even of it looks fine. There's a bunch of pressure on it (from both the chain and tensioner. ANY, deformity(more curvature) will cause issues. I had that on my KLR (but that chain was twice as long)


.

In that case I will buy an air compressor, perhaps a small, 6-8 liters (noy gallons) one will be enough, as I don't have that much storage room for tools.

After I posted my previous message, I managed to find a spare hour and took off:
-stator cover, all looked fine, just some back and forth play in the starter's shaft (not sure if that's normal or not)
-gear shifter cover- all seemed fine
-clutch cover the plates looked good, nothing seemed loose, but that chain (most likely the water pump) was very slack, and also the sprocket beneath it had considerable play

About "locking" up the engine, is putting it in 1st, and pressing the rear brake would be enough?

My concern is that simply putting a new chain (which, as I said I"ll be replacing anyway), will not fix it, and by the time I get the new chain and remount everything back together it will be almost September. Then, if I start to tear apart everything again, by the time I get who knows what other OEM parts it'll be October. Just in time to catch the nasty weather, and perhaps a few more days in between

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

I would NOT. There's too much play from the wheel to the crankshaft. It'd be best/safest to hold it at the stator rotor bolt (that big guy).

You'd be surprised how much force (it IS A BUNCH) will try to spin the crank if not held solid.

Pic's look good except the one shows your front sprocket, the "locking Tab" does NOT appear to be folded over-Perhaps the other side is.


I know your anxious to get it assembled but I think your getting way too deep when its very possibly just the chain.. Just my 2cts...


Did you see any rubbing marks inside the covers, case, etc, especially where the noise was emanating from?

Did you dump the oil and filter and check for particles? I suspect you'll find some shiney, very fine aluminum particles there...

Also, there is no adjustment for the oil pump chain. I believe it can be replaced by removing the clutch assembly. Finalimpact can confirm or not(it's been posted here awhile ago). Again, check that area for ANY rubbing...

.

 

[FinalImpact]

JM2C but I don't see a chain making that noise. The oil pump chain is going to have a bit of slack. Its not an issue.
So you have the clutch cover off, I'd pull all the friction and steel plates, toss the cover back on it and fire it up. Oil drag may try to spin the trans but this action leaves the engine, oil and water pump as well as the primary drive to trans as the only moving parts.

Because it idles steady it seems likely that compression or leak tests show minimal imbalance but time will tell.

 

[bigborer]

Pic's look good except the one shows your front sprocket, the "locking Tab" does NOT appear to be folded over-Perhaps the other side is. It is folded over but not by much, I'll take another pic tomorrow as I left the cover off for cleaning
I know your anxious to get it assembled but I think your getting way too deep when its very possibly just the chain.. Just my 2cts... I know that I'm thinking of the worst, but many times it actually turns out it was the worst...


Did you see any rubbing marks inside the covers, case, etc, especially where the noise was emanating from? Everything looked fine.

Did you dump the oil and filter and check for particles? I suspect you'll find some shiney, very fine aluminum particles there... I did manage to collect most of the oil (lost about 300ml) in a transparent water jug but it is to opaque to tell if it has any particles inside it, even with a flashlight. Perhaps I'll filter it to through some coffee filter or whatever kind of filter I could easily find in the supermarket.

Also, there is no adjustment for the oil pump chain. I believe it can be replaced by removing the clutch assembly. Finalimpact can confirm or not(it's been posted here awhile ago). Again, check that area for ANY rubbing... Didn't give it a very thorough inspection (it was getting dark), but the chain guide seemed fine as well

.

JM2C but I don't see a chain making that noise. The oil pump chain is going to have a bit of slack. Its not an issue.
So you have the clutch cover off, I'd pull all the friction and steel plates, toss the cover back on it and fire it up. Oil drag may try to spin the trans but this action leaves the engine, oil and water pump as well as the primary drive to trans as the only moving parts.

Because it idles steady it seems likely that compression or leak tests show minimal imbalance but time will tell.

It's not just "a bit", it almost feels like the chain is made of loose string. I can very easily move it around a lot.


Until I try to run it with the plates removed, first I must wait for the gasket and cam chain. And, is it possible to remove the boss nut with no special tools, or do I also need a clutch holder tool, as shown in the manual?

Also, I keep thinking of removing the main axle to check it's bearings.
The manual says this:


It's not clear to me if by doing the above the axle will slide out, or if other parts need to be removed as well.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Re the oil, simply bring the oil tray(container) outside in the sun. If there's aluminum in it, the oil will sparkle, like metallic paint.
A coffee filter works well too for catching crap (inside a funnel.)

I take it you have a shop manual to post those PDF pic's. As I re-call, those pic's, in the scheme of things is with the engine pulled, splitting cases etc.

As I re-call, someone changed out that chain without a full tear down. That chain has only been mentioned in 2 or 3 threads in ten years (that I've seen)..

The back of the main clutch has the teeth for that chain: Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W CLUTCH Diagram An air gun with the proper socket will zip it off easily...

I believe the water pump spine "keys" into a shaft for the oil pump as well:
Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W WATER PUMP Diagram


Here ya go, the oil pump and your chain:
Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W OIL PUMP Diagram




.

 

[FinalImpact]

Nope. Sorry you cant just pull that shaft out. You have to split the cases to get at the trans.

With it in gear and clutch pulled in, it makes this noise, yes? That's the same thing as pulling plates except the bearing in the clutch cover could make noise. All that needs to come out is the bolts and springs. Then the hat comes off with friction/steel to follow. Time wise this may no be a value add if you can confirm it makes noise in gear while stationary.

As for the valve cover gasket as long as it has no cracks and is pliable you just dab rtv at the cam cutouts and all sharp transitions. Clean gasket, head, and cover with brake cleaner to remove all oil and rtv. Then sneak the cover it quickly.

Pump chain. IIRC it is very loose. It is not a piano string so as long as it has lube and isn't hitting anything or can be pried off, it is not a concern.
How much deflection does it have? Even 15mm wouldn't scare me. Drive chains are happy when loose. Timing chains less so but more because of impact to cam timing.

Todays abstract thought is this:
Add oil via spark plug holes and TB intake to the two cylinders that were off line, install plugs and fire it up. Does it change the sound? If no, add oil two the other two holes and repeat.

It will smoke and if it has CATs these won't appreciate this much but it won't kill them.

 

[bigborer]

Re the oil, simply bring the oil tray(container) outside in the sun. If there's aluminum in it, the oil will sparkle, like metallic paint.
A coffee filter works well too for catching crap (inside a funnel.)

I take it you have a shop manual to post those PDF pic's. As I re-call, those pic's, in the scheme of things is with the engine pulled, splitting cases etc.

As I re-call, someone changed out that chain without a full tear down. That chain has only been mentioned in 2 or 3 threads in ten years (that I've seen)..

The back of the main clutch has the teeth for that chain: Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W CLUTCH Diagram An air gun with the proper socket will zip it off easily...

I believe the water pump spine "keys" into a shaft for the oil pump as well:
Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W WATER PUMP Diagram


Here ya go, the oil pump and your chain:
Yamaha Motorcycle Parts 2007 FZ6 - FZS6W OIL PUMP Diagram


.

I've skipped a page, it does say to remove crankcase, which pretty much means full teardown.

Nope. Sorry you cant just pull that shaft out. You have to split the cases to get at the trans.

With it in gear and clutch pulled in, it makes this noise, yes? That's the same thing as pulling plates except the bearing in the clutch cover could make noise. All that needs to come out is the bolts and springs. Then the hat comes off with friction/steel to follow. Time wise this may no be a value add if you can confirm it makes noise in gear while stationary.

As for the valve cover gasket as long as it has no cracks and is pliable you just dab rtv at the cam cutouts and all sharp transitions. Clean gasket, head, and cover with brake cleaner to remove all oil and rtv. Then sneak the cover it quickly.

Pump chain. IIRC it is very loose. It is not a piano string so as long as it has lube and isn't hitting anything or can be pried off, it is not a concern.
How much deflection does it have? Even 15mm wouldn't scare me. Drive chains are happy when loose. Timing chains less so but more because of impact to cam timing.

Todays abstract thought is this:
Add oil via spark plug holes and TB intake to the two cylinders that were off line, install plugs and fire it up. Does it change the sound? If no, add oil two the other two holes and repeat.

It will smoke and if it has CATs these won't appreciate this much but it won't kill them.

The noise is fully independent of any permutations of clutch, gear, or rolling speed.

I could patch up the gasket, reconnect the radiator and give it a try, after I filter the oil through something to surely rule out the presence of metal particles. Do you think the oil test you suggested would show anything other than possible ring issues? Wouldn't a compression test show the same?

I've came up with a full list of what could likely be wrong (pretty much all parts possible minus what I've checked :Flash:
-bad piston rod or crank bearing
-bad main axle bearing
-some loose screw anywhere inside the engine or transmission
-something loose or catchy in the starter or starter clutch

 

[gulfpete]

That's right I've had a couple of these motors apart and the oil pump chain is very loose.

It might be worth pulling the cam shafts off and checking for a cracked valve bucket or shim too, just to eliminate all possibilities while you have it apart.

Wriggle the clutch basket around to check for play in the bearing.

Spin the crankshaft and see if the clutch basket gets tighter or looser too, That's what killed my last motor - bent crankshaft.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

That's right I've had a couple of these motors apart and the oil pump chain is very loose.

It might be worth pulling the cam shafts off and checking for a cracked valve bucket or shim too, just to eliminate all possibilities while you have it apart.

.

I mentioned this WAY earlier in the thread. Never got a response...

It'll be torn down to bare cases by the am...

 

[bigborer]

That's right I've had a couple of these motors apart and the oil pump chain is very loose.

It might be worth pulling the cam shafts off and checking for a cracked valve bucket or shim too, just to eliminate all possibilities while you have it apart.

Wriggle the clutch basket around to check for play in the bearing.

Spin the crankshaft and see if the clutch basket gets tighter or looser too, That's what killed my last motor - bent crankshaft.

Thanks, will try that as well. But what could have bent crankshaft? Surely just dragging along the 2 shut off cylinders couldn't have bent the crankshaft...

I mentioned this WAY earlier in the thread. Never got a response...

It'll be torn down to bare cases by the am...

I might have missed it, otherwise I'd have checked it

 

[gulfpete]

Surely just dragging along the 2 shut off cylinders couldn't have bent the crankshaft...

That's right, it's very easy to check if you have the covers off already though.

The 2 pistons going up and down without fuel would be exactly the same as going down a long hill with the throttle shut.
I doubt that is the cause.

 

[FinalImpact]

The clutch friction plates are made of aluminum. They do break and when they do, they jump right into the primary reduction gears of the crank and clutch basket. Both gears loose. The one on the crank can not be replaced...

 

[FinalImpact]

That's right, it's very easy to check if you have the covers off already though.

The 2 pistons going up and down without fuel would be exactly the same as going down a long hill with the throttle shut.
I doubt that is the cause.

Agreed and mostly true. Even idle air and fuel for combustion are present so the piston is being acted upon when all elements are there (compression, fuel, spark). To your point, I can't imagine that damaged something. But, something changed and it seems to be rpm related.

Unless a replacement oil filter is not available, I'd be opening that one up. It will tell the story if something is going on inside...

 

[bigborer]

So, what I did today:

-removed the camshafts and checked the shims and buckets- all good
-the camshaft cap bolts were very tight, someone opened those before, and most likely didn't use a torque wrench
-found some scratches on 2 journals on the exhaust cam, and one very fine aluminum flake at the journal, and multiple other very fine scratches in other places (buffed them off with some paper towel)
-removed the rear cam chain guide, chain side looks ok, back side has some cracks at the part that gets pushed by the tensioner
-checked clutch basket play- it's small, and rotated the crank, not really sure what it should have been like if the crank was bent videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv5JKkYAVmQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAmCx9NpoQ4&feature=youtu.be
-drained the oil through a paper coffee filter, still waiting for it to finish flowing (it flows very slowly)

ps: also ordered a clutch holder tool, it should arrive by the end of this week

 

[FinalImpact]

No smoking gun there....

Why do you need a clutch basket tool? You don't to pull the steel and friction discs. Just the bolts on the end.

As for metal flecks, you may have made those simply by removing the bolts. And if the caps are not loosened in multiple steps the cam could easily knock a chunk off a cap.

If you can get the chain out, you can spin it by starter and maybe listen for noise? As in no valves in motion.

 

[gulfpete]

The clutch friction plates are made of aluminum. They do break and when they do, they jump right into the primary reduction gears of the crank and clutch basket. Both gears loose. The one on the crank can not be replaced...

That makes sense, mine had nearly new clutch plates when I bought it. A micrometer showed a bent crankshaft though.

found some scratches on 2 journals on the exhaust cam, and one very fine aluminum flake at the journal, and multiple other very fine scratches in other places

Getting close now - that metal may be the cause of the stretched timing chain too.
Need to find more of it and where it came from.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

What is that last picture of?

And that rear cam chain guide has got some serious wear where the chain rides.
You can see the wear (from the chain) and then the lip, (when it was new), besides cracking.

 

[bigborer]

No smoking gun there....

Why do you need a clutch basket tool? You don't to pull the steel and friction discs. Just the bolts on the end.

As for metal flecks, you may have made those simply by removing the bolts. And if the caps are not loosened in multiple steps the cam could easily knock a chunk off a cap.

If you can get the chain out, you can spin it by starter and maybe listen for noise? As in no valves in motion.

I loosened and re-tightened the bolts in 1/4 to 1/2 turns, going left-right-left-right.

The clutch tool would be needed for clutch removal. Why would I remove the clutch? Because I've just reached my wits end with this issue, and the only solution I see is to remove all the parts until I find "it".
I do appreciate a lot all the replies I've gotten for this, but today it's over 1 month since I towed the bike home and pretty much all I found broken is one half-worn cam chain. Overall I must have over 60 hours put in this (including all the online research I did, and yeah weekends were fun, just ask my GF), still counting, and still with no clear diagnostics. Had I just taken out the engine, and fully torn it apart, along side with all auxiliary parts, in 20 hours maximum I would have exhausted all possibilities, and also fully overhauled the engine.

As for running it by the starter, I did think about it but not sure it'll reproduce the noise, plus there is the risk of burning it after keeping it on for minutes.

Sorry for the rant but I'm just frustrated with myself, firstly for being too cheap and not buying something with a higher chance of very good operation (as in newer, from the original owner and lower mileage), and secondly for wasting so much time in a futile effort to save time.

The oil has almost fully flowed through the paper filter, still having about 50ml left, which should be drained by tomorrow. From what can be told by tilting the mixture a bit, there are a few silver, gold and black (plastic) tiny particles. I'll also cut open the oil filter tomorrow.

Next things to come off are the oil pan, and the engine head (yeah, I'll buy a new head gasket as well ). Then it's the crank case and transmission.

Getting close now - that metal may be the cause of the stretched timing chain too.
Need to find more of it and where it came from.

Apart from running out of parts to check I'm not really closing on anything with this.
The most likely cause for the chain stretch is the tensioner, which by the marking on it's shaft I could tell that at certain points it got stuck (gliding in steps rather than linear), allowing for a tiny bit too much slack, which in time had a cumulative effect.

What is that last picture of?

And that rear cam chain guide has got some serious wear where the chain rides.
You can see the wear (from the chain) and then the lip, (when it was new), besides cracking.

Ok, I'll buy a new guide as well...
The last pic is a side view of the part of the chain guide which gets pushed by the tensioner.